i was thinking about this..

[bigred76]

Not quite true, Ninja Moderator. I don't want to get into an arguement about it in poor ol' Dougie's thread, so I think we might wanna take this side topic to PMs.

[DRAGON]

Oh com'mon.....we don't argue here, we discuss rational opinions and Doug won't mind. It keeps his thread to the top -

[bomberpilot07]

yesh lol im on the phone with red right now.

[bigred76]

Fine, give me a minute to transfer the stuff from the PM I was writing to you....

HPA Tanks:
Shots Per Size Formulas

PSI (tank 1) X CU (tank 2) / shots (per full tank) = PSI per shot

T1 * T2
S

E.G. 141,000PSI divided by 750 shots per full tank equals 188PSI per shot
(141000/750=188)


PSI (tank 1) X CU (tank 2) / PSI per shot = shots (per full tank)

T1 * T2
P

E.G. 68ci times 45000PSI divided by 260PSI equals 1176.92307692 shots
(68*4500/260≈1177)

The first marker is my Spyder Imagine. The second marker is Bomberpilot's ProMaster.

The first marker is my Spyder Imagine. The second marker is Bomberpilot's ProMaster.

These equations work on these markers because the internal volume is 1 cubic inch. On other markers, like Intimidators, the internal volume is slightly different. To find the exact size that the internal volume of their V/A and LPR is, I would need to fill one with water and measure every last drop of it. AKA, I'm still working on it.

TL;DR: Lower pressure does equal better efficiency SO LONG AS you are talking about an LP running pressure, which I classify as a pressure that your marker shoots 275fps at...

Oh, and yes. I did come up with those by myself. I got kinda bored one day LOL! [/ninja edit spree]

[DRAGON]

Nice equations but theory is often offset by reality(one of DRAGON's favorite proverbs). You've left out a bunch of variables such as pressure rating, flow property, flow properties of the valve and regulator, flow properties of the propellant tank, weight of the striker, not only spring weight but spring tension since it is adjustable, shall I go on? This is why you cannot say a certain tank will yield 'X' amount of shots per tank especially with our different LP Spyder setups. Thus another ton of variables from the different modifications and components available on the market. To say that if my Spyder ran at 150psi I'd have better efficiency than if it ran at 300psi is totally incorrect. If you want to dabble in equations, figure out how much total volume of pressure for each shot it takes to push a ball through a barrel at 280fps at 150psi as compared to 300psi not theoretically equating volumes of space within a tank and the marker tubes. It takes less volume to push the ball at 300psi than it does at 150psi. Finding the mean flow per volume per velocity is the key to efficiency -

I know this is speaking of another marker but use the new and old Shockers as an example. They both run at extremely low pressures but are total gas hogs from the box. It takes an aftermarker bolt kit to prudently shave that bad efficiency into a more respectable state -

Low pressure does not mean less pressure. Seems that some confuse both because it comes to mind when you say it. They are not synonymous in the least. I'd like to hear Otter's imput on this subject -

See, I didn't YELL or anything of the like -

[bigred76]

Originally Posted by DRAGON

Nice equations but theory is often offset by reality(one of DRAGON's favorite proverbs). You've left out a bunch of variables such as pressure rating, flow property, flow properties of the valve and regulator, flow properties of the propellant tank, weight of the striker, not only spring weight but spring tension since it is adjustable, shall I go on?

You seem to forget: I used a certain FPS as a reference point. Thus, those factors are included because to get that FPS, the marker has to deal with all those issues.

Originally Posted by DRAGON

This is why you cannot say a certain tank will yield 'X' amount of shots per tank especially with our different LP Spyder setups. Thus another ton of variables from the different modifications and components available on the market. To say that if my Spyder ran at 150psi I'd have better efficiency than if it ran at 300psi is totally incorrect. If you want to dabble in equations, figure out how much total volume of pressure for each shot it takes to push a ball through a barrel at 280fps at 150psi as compared to 300psi not theoretically equating volumes of space within a tank and the marker tubes. It takes less volume to push the ball at 300psi than it does at 150psi. Finding the mean flow per volume per velocity is the key to efficiency -

It seems that you realized here my point of using the velocity reference point. With the same marker, with the same set-up, my little equation will hold true. You WILL get better efficiency by using 150psi than 300psi with the same marker.

Originally Posted by DRAGON

I know this is speaking of another marker but use the new and old Shockers as an example. They both run at extremely low pressures but are total gas hogs from the box. It takes an aftermarker bolt kit to prudently shave that bad efficiency into a more rational state -

READ BEFORE YOU POST! I said that markers with LPRs with different internal volumes will differ with operating pressures. My assumption is that the Shocker has a massive internal compartment for air storage, requiring less PSI becuase it has the same amount of air, even tho it is not as pressurized. I.E.: You can fit 300psi of air in 1", and then put that same exact gas in the same exact quantity at 150psi in a 2" compartment.

Originally Posted by DRAGON

Low pressure does not mean less pressure. Seems that some confuse both because it comes to mind when you say it. They are not synonymous in the least. I'd like to hear Otter's imput on this subject -

You're correct there. Less pressure does not equal less pressure becuase the internal volumes differ as I've already said. I PMed Otter my equation a little while back to see if I could possibly claim the idea for that equation because I didn't know if anyone had done it before. Didn't get a response, so IDK what happened. Hopefully he'll get into this thread.

Originally Posted by DRAGON

See, I didn't YELL or anything of the like -

Go right ahead and yell at me.

[DRAGON]

Waidaminit.......did you perhaps work for **** Nixon at one portion of your life? As I typing about one list of your theories, you change things while I'm typing. Are you messin wit me?

Another thing, so you're comparing your Spyder to Bomber's Pro Master at different pressures? Why did I even bother to start this discussion? You need to use the same marker(we are discussing BP's LP Spyder here are we not? Not his Pro Master)

Please sir, who's on first, what's on second and I fergit why's I even bothered? -

[bigred76]

Haha, I said give me a minute LOL. I can't type everything at once, and I had different bits of info needed in different portions of my computer. Plus, at my level of energy, my typing starts to slow down...Sorry, I shouldn't have edit-whored there, I got a lil' carried away... I'm like Claus at times...I need

I threw the ProMaster in on accident, it was part of another thing I was doing and ended up copying it over as well....The same theories/formulas work for it on Spyders, however.

I warned you we didn't want to spam poor Bomber's thread...LOL!

[*EM1-Master*]

Pardon my frankness, but your equations suck... You're approaching high level math with a 10th grade education... High level Calculus, fluid dynamics, and other things beyond your knowledge level are involved, and you're going at it with simple Algebra... Good try, but no...

[bigred76]

I give...bah....Druid was right, this will start a flame fest.