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Old 10-15-2009, 09:39 PM
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kingny kingny is offline
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Default Pros and Cons of .50

CREDIT GOES TO GEEKGOD FROM PBN

I did not see a thread pertaining to this subject in the ASM forum and seeing as i see people with ASM to be a lot more mature and educated than the rest of the pbnation population i felt like this would be a good place for this topic to be discused and talked about. My first two posts are as unbiased as i can get them, and the 3rd post is my personal feeling on the matter and what i have gained from the reading i have done

Pros and Cons of .50

As not only a player but also as someone who works in the industry I took it upon myself to write up a pros and cons list to hopefully start good educated discussion. I would like this thread to not create flaming but smart educated discussion.

First off lets knock out some quick math witch I will reference quite a few times threw my discussion.
To understand the size difference we must first know the difference in volume of each size paintball.
Volume of a sphere= 4/3*Pie*radius^3

V of .68=0.16463621020893518
V of .50= 0.06544984694979167

With those 2 numbers we can figure out that a .50 takes up 60.246% less space than a .68 paintball. (** I know you never thought you would use algebra and geometry again but I guess my math teacher was right:P )


Pros
1. More shots per fill. With a 60% smaller paintball it will take over half the amount of energy it took to speed a .68 ball to the same speed (300fps) meaning that each shot takes less air from your tank.

2. Smaller gun With the smaller ball taking less energy to propel the ball down the barrel and eventually reaching 300fps means a few things. Gun its self can get smaller. with the projectile becoming smaller the valve chamber on a gun can become smaller while also the breach and bolt of the gun can be drastically reduced creating a smaller lighter gun.

3. Smaller Tanks With shots per fill increasing you can pick two different options. you can carry the same size tank and shoot that much more paint per game. or the actual size and weight of the tanks will decrease allowing you to shoot the same amount of paint you do now only your profile and weight are reduced that much more.

4. Smaller Loaders With a smaller ball the amount of space needed to carry 180-200 rounds will be much smaller. again further reducing your over all profile/ weight of your gun. On top of that with a smaller hopper and feed neck your field of vision will be increased.

5. Smaller Packs/Pods With the .50 ball taking up less space caring 2000 rounds on your back would be something that is quite easy to do. If the ball takes up less than half the space of a .68 ball that means instead of you fitting 140 rounds in each pod you can fit close to 350 rounds in the same space. So a case on your back will technically speaking only take up the same space as 5.17 pods! Again adding to the reduced overall weight of your gear.

6. Reduced Price With the balls being 60% smaller you can imagine 2000 rounds costing less than half of what it does now! the price will be reduced in 3 ways. 1. Smaller ball= less material used to make the ball. 2. With a smaller ball the box that holds 2000 rounds will take less cardboard and less ink (to print the pretty pictures on the boxes) 3. With smaller boxes more cases of paint can be fit onto 1 shipping skid reducing the price of shipping costs per ball.

7. Less pain Using the equation Mass*Velocity= Force. If the .50 ball weights half that of a .68 ball then essentially it will have half the force. because in this equation velocity is the constant (assuming we keep the fps to 300 fps) and the mass of the actual ball is the variable that we are changing and force is what is effected in the end. (**If the .50 ball takes up over half the space of a .68 ball I am going to make the assumption that a .50 ball weights over half the weight of a .68 ball**) The question I have about this statement though is with a smaller surface area the force will be applied on a smaller portion of skin which would complete negate this Con but I do not have a math equation to prove or disprove this point. Nor a .50 ball to shoot at my own leg so we shall see what the outcome is. *if I did have one I would

8. Shorter Bolt Movement With the ball being much smaller this will allow for bolts to travel a shorter distance to clear the breach to allow the next ball to fall into place. What this does is 3 things. 1. Much higher rates of fire could be achieved due to the bolt having to travel less distance. 2. The bolt and rammer (if we're talking about a poppet gun) both can be shorter reducing the weight of the reciprocating mass decreasing the amount of kick you will get form you gun. And lastly with the bolt and rammer both traveling shorter distances the guns them self will again become shorter and smaller adding to the advantage of having a smaller/lighter gun.

9. Hoppers Feed Rate will Increase The feed rate of hoppers will increase without any significant changes. Dye is already (and supposedly done with) a drop in "upgrade" for .50 paint. If we look at a rotor you can fit (I'm taking a guess cause I don't have a rotor in front of me) 10 balls in the catch cup (where the red "Shark Tail" is) well if you decrease the size of the ball and allow 13 balls in that catch cup and the speed of the "shark tail" moving is constant than if have just increased the feed rate of the rotor from 20bps to 26 bps.
Also to go along with the hopper functioning faster if we look specifically at the breach of the gun its self, due to the ball and breach being smaller after a shot has occurred; as the bolt comes back to allow for another ball to fall into the breach since the ball its self is smaller it has a shorter distance to fall into place again increasing the feed rate for loaders

Before I explain some of the cons I would like to touch on a small amount of physics first. With the idea of Mass*Velocity=Force if the mass is lowered and the velocity is kept constant then force is lowered. If forced is lower than distance traveled by the projectile will be shorter (in a vacuum). But we are in the real world and we are not in a vacuum so we have this thing called "drag" or "friction". Friction is applied on the ball by the air the ball is traveling through. There for if the ball is smaller than less drag is applied to the ball meaning it has less resistance while traveling through the air. Whether or not the friction co-efficient is enough to outweigh the force and momentum of the ball is something I would need exact measurement and weights for each ball for. (if you happen to have a .50 ball PLEASE get some digital calipers give me a exact measurement and weight of the ball it would help allot)

Example: pick up a full (23oz) Arizona tea can and throw it as hard as you can. Now take a empty one and throw it as far as you can. The full can will travel a farther distance due to it having more force with the same amount of drag. But now if you took a full (12oz) RedBull can and throw it. Witch went further the full Arizona or the Redbull? Without knowing weights and exact sizes of the full and empty cans we can't know unless we test it.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:41 PM
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kingny kingny is offline
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Default Re: Pros and Cons of .50

Cons
1. Poor Accuracy IF the friction coefficient out weights the change in the mass then the balls will not travel as far as we are used to. With this thought, since the mass and force of the ball have been lowered this leaves the door wide open for the industry changing the FPS limit for the .50 ball to a possibly much higher speed. If the FPS is changes then the balls would be able to travel the same distance.

2. New Guns If the industry as a whole moves towards .50 new guns will need to be made to fire the new ball. Eclipse has already shown that Guns can be retro fitted and rumor that dye is doing the same. While retro fitting a drop in "upgrade" will negate some of the Pros i have listed it is a great answer for those who do not have the money to buy new guns.

3. Paint Will bounce more With lower Force coming from a .50 ball that means that the ball may not break as often. GI Milsim (company spearheading the .50 move) has said to have found a "fix" to this problem. but not information has been released

4. Less Paint Means easier to wipe This is an idea I have heard quite a few people talk about and could be a potential problem but something I would like to point out. With each ball leaving less paint field will be much cleaner and the problem of rub will go down (if the field is properly maintained and cleaned by the refs)

"At short ranges the .62 pellets used to travel faster and thus would have a flatter trajectory over such ranges.
At long ranges they would drop off more due to less energy to overcome air resistance. Making it hard to be accurate at long range.
At even longer ranges they wouldn't reach targets that .68 cal pellets would with enough energy to break.
manike"

This is true and the exact idea i was talking about but there are 2 ways you can fix this problem. first and easiest is with the Mass being reduced then it would allow the industry to allow for a faster FPS limit which would bring the force back to the same as it was with the .68 only the ball will be traveling in a flatter faster trajectory. The second option is to find a heavier product to create the paint out of which would then increase the mass yet keep the friction on the ball down.


Remember your history folks. If smaller = better, then someone would have made a custom batch of smaller caliber paint for their own use and would have tried to sneak it in to some event to give them an advantage. In fact, a big name team did do exactly that, made some custom guns and a custom run of paint that gave them more range, more accuracy, and better breakage. The infamous Ironball used by Bob Long's Ironmen. And guess what, it wasn't smaller, it was a BIGGER and thus heavier .70 caliber ball.
Yes Bob had a great idea to gain competitive edge with this. But yet again looking at the equation i have referenced so many times is the M*V=F. due to the Velocity being the constant because the league would not let Bob let his guns shoot faster if he changed the mass of the ball he would gain more force which would make the balls go further and give his team an edge. Well in the case of .50 paint if the Mass has been reduced then we could raise the Velocity creating a better shot.


Who says paintball needs more innovation? Has baseball seen massive leaps in technology? Football? Basketball? Soccer? The answer is no. The growth and future of paintball has nothing to do with the size balls we shoot, it has to do with public perception of our sport.
With this statement you are comparing apples and oranges. We all would agree that paintball is pretty much in a word of its own due to the amount of design and thought that goes behind our gear, and also with how young of a sport it is. It is near impossible to compare Paintball to a regular "ball" sport.

Will my .68 gun be obsolete?
NO! the industry cannot afford to completely drop the .68 ball. There have been too many tippmanns and spyders sold to Joe Smoe who plays maybe once or twice a year (if that). If Joe were to walk into his local pro shop to buy paint and the person behind the counter were to say "I'm sorry we don't have those kind of paintballs any more. The industry has switched to a smaller ball rendering your gun obsolete. But you can spend $30 on a drop in "upgrade" and another $50 on a barrel that will allow you to play!" He will laugh at you leave the store and never come back again. which means that paintball will lose a HUGE range of its market. While Joe Smoe only plays two times a year his demographic of players are one of the largest this sport has. Not much money is made from the tourney series the money is in the recreational play who plays a few times a year with his friends. if paintball looses that customer they will be in a world of hurt. So I more see .50 as a "upgrade" if you want it. If it truly dose perform better than .68 than most of the top performers and the players that have the money will switch to it. if you don't then stay with what you got and stick with it, for those who are lucky enough to be able to afford to switch to .50 will have the advantage over the player who has .68

If it's not broken don't fix it!
This is the biggest response I have been hearing and it is the dumbest one I have heard also. If it's not broken? I don't know if any of you see the impact that the economy has made on this sport then please go look at some pictures of what paintball tournaments used to be (only a few years ago) and then look at them now, teams are steadily declining, weekend warrior players have turned into monthly warrior players, and the new players that were flocking to this sport have been disappearing. If I have never tried something before in my life and I hear that it hurts when you do it there is no way in hell I would pay 80+ dollars to try it out. I would just say forget this let me go play soccer, or football with friends! we need to make this sport cheaper to help new players come into the sport and fall in love with it. For those of you that are saying this sport is not broken you are terribly blind and need your eyes opened to the current economic state. Even companies like toys r'us are preparing for a tough Christmas season.


Now lastly let me give a brief history of myself. I have played paintball for 11 years now, I started out when I was only 10 and have followed the sport ever since. during high school it was simply a hobby of mine. something that I would do 2 or 3 times a year with friends, i only played 2 or 3 times a year due to being a kid and not having allot of money. I lived for those 2 or 3 days each year. I would dream about them and think about them until the next one came. Shortly after graduation high school I started working for Pev's Paintball. Pev's has become my home away from home. I love every person who is a part of, works for, and shops at Pev's I do all I can to represent the company to the best of my abilities and try all I can to better this sport and educate the general (non paintball) public about the sport. While working at Pev's I have played for Justice Kidz. That's right were bringing the Justice name back to turny paintball! (if you don't know who or what justice is pick up a old 10 man magazine and you will soon find out).


My closing statements, for those who are scared their guns will be obsolete don’t be, .68 will stay if anything .50 will only be a "upgrade" that you can have instead of the only option. If one day it does go to the only option then great (if it is truly better). Because this could potentially help the sport in a tremendous way making it better for all of us! Don’t always be scared of change, if we all were we all might still be thinking the world is flat!

CREDIT GOES TO GEEKGOD FROM PBN
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: Pros and Cons of .50

I was at Cup and I shot the guns at the GI milsim Tent. It is the future and anyone who has half a brain will convert. The guns are unbelievably light and they rounds shoot the same as the .68. A far as performance goes they are basically the same thing just that one gives you greater efficiency and the other larger splat marks(not by much maybe 20% larger at the most) yet the .50 cal is $25 a case. I want to play more and with .50 I can. As soon as the .50 cal conversion kits are available for my RX and DM9 Im getting them.
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Old 10-18-2009, 04:46 AM
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Default Re: Pros and Cons of .50

here's some REAL WORLD data:
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3231068
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Old 10-18-2009, 05:16 AM
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Default Re: Pros and Cons of .50

I'm sorry, unless the "magical actual formula" for the fill is 99% lead, I truly doubt this will replace 68. And I'm very leary of jumping behind anything Chris Lasoya is pimping, as he seems to jump behind whoever pays him the most, not that I blame him. But for now, I'm adamantly sticking with 68.

Screw Smart Parts and their "revolution".
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Old 10-18-2009, 07:02 AM
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nastystankweed nastystankweed is offline
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Default Re: Pros and Cons of .50

Quote:
Originally Posted by battlechaser View Post
I'm sorry, unless the "magical actual formula" for the fill is 99% lead, I truly doubt this will replace 68. And I'm very leary of jumping behind anything Chris Lasoya is pimping, as he seems to jump behind whoever pays him the most, not that I blame him. But for now, I'm adamantly sticking with 68.

Screw Smart Parts and their "revolution".
you need to shoot it. It wasn't revolutionary in performance but it's cheaper and that is what I love about it.

I just saw those charts and if the results shown there are true I will probably be picking up the .50 paint for practice and shoot the .68 when I need that performance (still depends on the cost of the conversion kits). A case of crappy paint costs me $65 here. Maybe with 50 it will cost me $40 and I would love that.
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-cp clamp feedneck(gloss black)
-shocktech supafly bolt
-empire revolver barrel kit(gloss black)
-cp pro mini asa (gloss black)
-acp stryker
-hyper 2 (dust clear)
-shock tech spring kit
-Virte board

DYE MATRIX 9
-Sly barrel
-Yakuza on the way

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Last edited by nastystankweed : 10-18-2009 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 10-18-2009, 10:19 AM
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Default Re: Pros and Cons of .50

I'm probably going to switch over. The pros do outweigh the cons ha. The only thing I don't like is that it will be alot easier to cheat but eh the price is good.
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Old 10-18-2009, 10:25 AM
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Arrow Re: Pros and Cons of .50

Quote:
Originally Posted by battlechaser View Post
.........Screw Smart Parts and their "revolution".
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:18 AM
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Default Re: Pros and Cons of .50

Quote:
Originally Posted by nastystankweed View Post
you need to shoot it. It wasn't revolutionary in performance but it's cheaper and that is what I love about it.

I just saw those charts and if the results shown there are true I will probably be picking up the .50 paint for practice and shoot the .68 when I need that performance (still depends on the cost of the conversion kits). A case of crappy paint costs me $65 here. Maybe with 50 it will cost me $40 and I would love that.
I sincerely doubt the players will see any cost change. It's like when the Canadian government lowered our sales taxes, what did pretty much every store do? Alter their prices so you paid the same as before.

If they don't do it immediately after .50 cal picks up speed, they will after it's made the predominant ammunition.

And lulz Dragon, this is the reason why I don't mind washing the occasional thong.
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Old 10-18-2009, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Pros and Cons of .50

lol dragon

hey, if Chris Lasoya uses it then i use it, i automatically will be a better player because that's the way it is
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