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  #31  
Old 11-01-2006, 01:48 PM
Hob Hayward's Avatar
Hob Hayward Hob Hayward is offline
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Default Re: Kerry's statements

Well technically they did go up when we went into iraq... Ahem?

And Sandman, when talking about imbecilic comments I beg you, look at Bush.

What is truly neccissary for our country is a moderate whos not retardedly on one side. Someone who says, ok, stem cell research has soooooooooooooooooo much potential to do good that research must be done. We also need someone who will give us rights. Gay marriage: who are you to tell someone what they can and can't do just because you don't agree with it, they're not hurting anyone. Abortion: honestly if you don't beleive in it, don't do it. Do we outlaw contraception because the Catholics don't beleive in it? If your going to stomp on other peopels beliefs because you disagree and on't want ot give them freedom, then **** you. In referance to tax cuts, no one under the $200,000 income has received any benefits of tax cuts. Raise the taxes on the rich. We can't be spending money liek we do. We as a country are over 8.5 TRILLION dollars in debt, thats 3 trillion more than we were back when clinton was president. And guess what, Clinton was decreasing our debt before.

This comes from if you couldn't have guessed it, an upper middle class liberal white kid who is positive god doesn't exist (see: New Atheism).
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  #32  
Old 11-01-2006, 01:59 PM
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Default Re: Kerry's statements

Hob we have to remember...
Clinton inherited the internet bubble (Boom)
Bush inherited 9/11

One will get more money and one will cost more money.

As for the no one will benefit that earns $200,000 or less is false. We all got money back while Bush has been in office. We have actually gotten money twice.
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  #33  
Old 11-01-2006, 02:00 PM
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Default Re: Kerry's statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by DexGtr


That is the funniest thing I have seen today...
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  #34  
Old 11-01-2006, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: Kerry's statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hob Hayward
Well technically they did go up when we went into iraq... Ahem?

And Sandman, when talking about imbecilic comments I beg you, look at Bush.

What is truly neccissary for our country is a moderate whos not retardedly on one side.
That is the only unbiased thing you said in this entire post, and I agree.

Quote:
Someone who says, ok, stem cell research has soooooooooooooooooo much potential to do good that research must be done.
It's not the fact that stem cell research is bad. It's how they're going about it, and how some people would use it. The whole deal is, no one wants to see clones. And regardless of what scientists tell you, we all know their ulitmate goal is to clone an organ, and then eventually an entire human body. Who are they to create another person?

Quote:
We also need someone who will give us rights.

Gay marriage: who are you to tell someone what they can and can't do just because you don't agree with it, they're not hurting anyone.

Abortion: honestly if you don't beleive in it, don't do it. Do we outlaw contraception because the Catholics don't beleive in it?
Who are you to change the way a country has been ran for the last 230 years? Who is anyone to change the way the Constitution is written? America was founded on certain beliefs and principals, and they've worked thus far. Why change them?

Quote:
If your going to stomp on other peopels beliefs because you disagree and on't want ot give them freedom, then **** you.
Gee. Freedom. Let's think about freedom. Freedom starts as people wanting to make abortion legal, and gay marriage legal. Hmm, ok. No big deal. Hey, you know what? Lots of people smoke weed, let's make that legal too, no biggie. While we're at it, we might as well lower the drinking age to 16 since the majority of high school kids enjoy drinking. Let's eliminate tobacco laws too while we're on a roll here. Get the point? Laws are in place for a reason. You may say that to imply that if you allow abortion and gay marriage, it won't lead to all of that, but you're wrong. You give someone an inch, they take a foot. The bottom line is, if all you people have so many problems with the way the country is ran, then go visit our friendly neighbors to the North. They'd be more than happy to have you.

Quote:
In referance to tax cuts, no one under the $200,000 income has received any benefits of tax cuts.
I'd love to see some facts backing this up. My dad only makes 90-100k a year, and he saved literally THOUSANDS of dollars on taxes in the tax cuts Bush passed, and so did many of the taxpayers he talked to.

Quote:
Raise the taxes on the rich. We can't be spending money liek we do. We as a country are over 8.5 TRILLION dollars in debt, thats 3 trillion more than we were back when clinton was president. And guess what, Clinton was decreasing our debt before.
I'd also love to see the facts backing this up. You realize that when the government switches presidents, the effects of the previous president in office don't usually take place until 2-3 years after the switch. Clinton left our economy in shambles. The only reason he looked good is because of the Dot-Com boom back in the late 90's and early 2000's that boosted the economy. What does Bush get left with? September 11th, Katrina, Afghanistan, Iraq. You say he just got us in there by himself? Yeah right. Clinton's administration left unfinished business in both Afghanistan and Iraq long before Bush came to office.

Quote:
This comes from if you couldn't have guessed it, an upper middle class liberal white kid who is positive god doesn't exist (see: New Atheism).
Positive God doesn't exist, eh? Well I'm positive he does.

This was not meant as a personal attack on you, but only on the points you brought up. This has been a good debate so far..so let's keep it that way.
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  #35  
Old 11-01-2006, 02:30 PM
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Default Re: Kerry's statements

Durrel I have to disagree on some technical points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by durrell


Gee. Freedom. Let's think about freedom. Freedom starts as people wanting to make abortion legal, and gay marriage legal. Hmm, ok. No big deal. Hey, you know what? Lots of people smoke weed, let's make that legal too, no biggie. While we're at it, we might as well lower the drinking age to 16 since the majority of high school kids enjoy drinking. Let's eliminate tobacco laws too while we're on a roll here. Get the point? Laws are in place for a reason. You may say that to imply that if you allow abortion and gay marriage, it won't lead to all of that, but you're wrong. You give someone an inch, they take a foot. The bottom line is, if all you people have so many problems with the way the country is ran, then go visit our friendly neighbors to the North. They'd be more than happy to have you.

This I have to disagree with. Being gay does not equate with making pot legal or lowering the drinking age. I agree that marraige is between a man and a woman but I also believe that gay couples have rights as well. I think that Civil Unions are the solutions. I also disagree with the hate of Canada. They are a different country dont hate because they are different than the USA. It seems to work for them just as out country seems to work well for us.


I'd love to see some facts backing this up. My dad only makes 90-100k a year, and he saved literally THOUSANDS of dollars on taxes in the tax cuts Bush passed, and so did many of the taxpayers he talked to.
Technical Point: Tax cuts seem great an all, but continual tax cuts can and will be detrimantal over time. You cant cut taxes and spend money especially in a War Economy. This is one reason that our country is in such bad fiscal shape. We dont cut spending and every politician that comes by cuts our taxes. Thus we increase the money we spend and we decrease the money that we take in. That isnt to say that raising taxes is good. Take a look at the Laffer Curve. That shows that there is a equilibrium tax level that yields maximum revenue for a taxing entity. Until you can show me that by cutting taxes we get closer to that equilibrium please dont tell me that cutting taxes are good for the country.


I'd also love to see the facts backing this up. You realize that when the government switches presidents, the effects of the previous president in office don't usually take place until 2-3 years after the switch. Clinton left our economy in shambles. The only reason he looked good is because of the Dot-Com boom back in the late 90's and early 2000's that boosted the economy. What does Bush get left with? September 11th, Katrina, Afghanistan, Iraq. You say he just got us in there by himself? Yeah right. Clinton's administration left unfinished business in both Afghanistan and Iraq long before Bush came to office.
Clinton was not responsible for the dot com bust and not responsable for the depression after he left office. Just as Bush didnt control 9/11 Clinton did not control the economy. Both are victims of circumstance.
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  #36  
Old 11-01-2006, 02:56 PM
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Default Re: Kerry's statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderpaintball
This I have to disagree with. Being gay does not equate with making pot legal or lowering the drinking age. I agree that marraige is between a man and a woman but I also believe that gay couples have rights as well. I think that Civil Unions are the solutions. I also disagree with the hate of Canada. They are a different country dont hate because they are different than the USA. It seems to work for them just as out country seems to work well for us.
I wasn't hating on Canada. Canada legalized weed, and gay marriages. If you want those rights, I don't see why everyone else should be forced to agree with you on that to have them here. What you said is true, our country works well for us. Why turn it upside down by totally changing it?

Quote:
Technical Point: Tax cuts seem great an all, but continual tax cuts can and will be detrimantal over time. You cant cut taxes and spend money especially in a War Economy. This is one reason that our country is in such bad fiscal shape. We dont cut spending and every politician that comes by cuts our taxes. Thus we increase the money we spend and we decrease the money that we take in. That isnt to say that raising taxes is good. Take a look at the Laffer Curve. That shows that there is a equilibrium tax level that yields maximum revenue for a taxing entity. Until you can show me that by cutting taxes we get closer to that equilibrium please dont tell me that cutting taxes are good for the country.
Ok well here's my problem (not with you) but with Liberals in particular. They complain that the middle class is being taxed too much, and the upper class rich people aren't being taxed enough. If they believe this, but also believe that we need more taxing to fund the economy, then why are they complaining? That is my whole point. They never can make up their mind as to what they want, it's one thing one week, and another the next. Also, what about the basic law of supply and demand? Cutting taxes puts more money in the taxpayers pockets, which allows them to go spend more. And don't try to tell me that a LOT of people don't take their refund checks and spend them immediately. Take a look at quarterly car sales around tax time, cars sell MUCH more during that time. I agree on the equilibrium, there needs to be a midpoint. But where? And can the 2 sides agree on one?

Quote:
Clinton was not responsible for the dot com bust and not responsable for the depression after he left office. Just as Bush didnt control 9/11 Clinton did not control the economy. Both are victims of circumstance.
I definitely agree here too, but if people look at Bush and say he screwed things up, we have to look at his inheritance..

I think one thing we can all agree on is we're all sick of the partisan politics. We all have affiliations, as shown by this thread, and we support different sides based on their views. But there are more important things to this country than gay marriage and abortion. Taxes. The economy. The war in Iraq and war on terror. Education. And other various issues that should be at the top of the list, but yet politicians insist on trying to get different groups of people to vote for them by supporting other not-so-important issues. And that goes for BOTH sides. Most Conservative politicians are narrow minded and refuse to break. But most Liberals ride the fence on issues and when the Conservatives offer a meeting point on an issue, they change their mind, and so on and so forth. When are they going to start getting things done? Politicians are too proud to agree with the other side, and all they do is sit there and debate back and forth, and frankly..I'm sick of it.
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  #37  
Old 11-01-2006, 03:17 PM
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Hob Hayward Hob Hayward is offline
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Default Re: Kerry's statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by durrell
It's not the fact that stem cell research is bad. It's how they're going about it, and how some people would use it. The whole deal is, no one wants to see clones. And regardless of what scientists tell you, we all know their ulitmate goal is to clone an organ, and then eventually an entire human body. Who are they to create another person?
Lets see, if you were life or death over then need of an organ that could be created using stem cells which way would you chose? Die or get the organ? The idea that scientists are going to be cloning humans is crazy. We can hardly clone sheep, and I don't think we're going to get to the point where a human clone is made for quite some time, though I can't say I really find too much wrong with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by durrell
Gee. Freedom. Let's think about freedom. Freedom starts as people wanting to make abortion legal, and gay marriage legal. Hmm, ok. No big deal. Hey, you know what? Lots of people smoke weed, let's make that legal too, no biggie. While we're at it, we might as well lower the drinking age to 16 since the majority of high school kids enjoy drinking. Let's eliminate tobacco laws too while we're on a roll here. Get the point? Laws are in place for a reason. You may say that to imply that if you allow abortion and gay marriage, it won't lead to all of that, but you're wrong. You give someone an inch, they take a foot. The bottom line is, if all you people have so many problems with the way the country is ran, then go visit our friendly neighbors to the North. They'd be more than happy to have you.
To compare pot and alcohol to gay marriage and abortion is just silly. The drug laws and alcohol laws are supposed to be there for our protection. Does gay marriage or abortion hurt us in any ways? No.

I live in Ma

Quote:
Originally Posted by durrell
I'd also love to see the facts backing this up. You realize that when the government switches presidents, the effects of the previous president in office don't usually take place until 2-3 years after the switch. Clinton left our economy in shambles. The only reason he looked good is because of the Dot-Com boom back in the late 90's and early 2000's that boosted the economy. What does Bush get left with? September 11th, Katrina, Afghanistan, Iraq. You say he just got us in there by himself? Yeah right. Clinton's administration left unfinished business in both Afghanistan and Iraq long before Bush came to office.
Lets see, Clinton came into office, the debt was climbing, he was the first pres to turn the debt around in many many years, Bush came into office with the debt still dropping and has succeeeded in doubling it. The invasion of Iraq was certainly uneccissary and Katrina, well I won't get into that, but that was the biggest govenrmental disaster in quite a long time, so Bush failed at helping properly while still spending money. We spend 1.6 Billion in iraq EVERY DAY.



Quote:
Originally Posted by durrell
Positive God doesn't exist, eh? Well I'm positive he does.
Each to his own, telling you you couldn't beleive in god is iek telling two people they can't be married because they're gay.
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  #38  
Old 11-01-2006, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: Kerry's statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by durrell
Ok well here's my problem (not with you) but with Liberals in particular. They complain that the middle class is being taxed too much, and the upper class rich people aren't being taxed enough. If they believe this, but also believe that we need more taxing to fund the economy, then why are they complaining? That is my whole point. They never can make up their mind as to what they want, it's one thing one week, and another the next. Also, what about the basic law of supply and demand? Cutting taxes puts more money in the taxpayers pockets, which allows them to go spend more. And don't try to tell me that a LOT of people don't take their refund checks and spend them immediately. Take a look at quarterly car sales around tax time, cars sell MUCH more during that time. I agree on the equilibrium, there needs to be a midpoint. But where? And can the 2 sides agree on one?

I disagree there, I don't see Middle class complaining about taxes. I see the middle class complaining that the 200,000+ people pay far less in taxes.



I think one thing we can all agree on is we're all sick of the partisan politics. We all have affiliations, as shown by this thread, and we support different sides based on their views. But there are more important things to this country than gay marriage and abortion. Taxes. The economy. The war in Iraq and war on terror. Education. And other various issues that should be at the top of the list, but yet politicians insist on trying to get different groups of people to vote for them by supporting other not-so-important issues. And that goes for BOTH sides. Most Conservative politicians are narrow minded and refuse to break. But most Liberals ride the fence on issues and when the Conservatives offer a meeting point on an issue, they change their mind, and so on and so forth. When are they going to start getting things done? Politicians are too proud to agree with the other side, and all they do is sit there and debate back and forth, and frankly..I'm sick of it.

I also disagree here, the politicians may be idiots in some cases, but then again Bush can't even talk.

I could also bring global warming in, we've got republicans denying the truth here. I'd like to see a scientifically backed argument saying that it doesn't exist.
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  #39  
Old 11-01-2006, 03:51 PM
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Default Re: Kerry's statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hob Hayward
Lets see, if you were life or death over then need of an organ that could be created using stem cells which way would you chose? Die or get the organ? The idea that scientists are going to be cloning humans is crazy. We can hardly clone sheep, and I don't think we're going to get to the point where a human clone is made for quite some time, though I can't say I really find too much wrong with it.
I don't know enough about stem cells to comment on this much..

Quote:
To compare pot and alcohol to gay marriage and abortion is just silly. The drug laws and alcohol laws are supposed to be there for our protection. Does gay marriage or abortion hurt us in any ways? No.
Abortion doesn't hurt us? Hmm. Legalizing abortion just gives teenagers one more way out if they decide on premarital sex. Premarital sex and sleeping around with different people can lead to STD's. Do you see no problem with STD's? Nothing good comes out of legalizing abortions. If a woman gets pregnant it is her own fault for having sex. In the issue of rape, it has been proven that women who are raped and get abortions have longer lasting detrimental psychological effects than those who go through with the pregnancy. It has also been proven that in the cases of rape, less than 3 percent of women end up pregnant. I am not an advocate of rape, but I believe that the other 97 percent speaks for itself that abortion should not be legalized. So, in essence, abortion laws are there for protection as well.

Gay marriage. There's nothing to say about this issue besides the fact that a majority of people disagree with it. But I believe in a few years civil unions will be legalized, so it's not as much of a valid argument as that of abortion.

Quote:
Lets see, Clinton came into office, the debt was climbing, he was the first pres to turn the debt around in many many years, Bush came into office with the debt still dropping and has succeeeded in doubling it. The invasion of Iraq was certainly uneccissary and Katrina, well I won't get into that, but that was the biggest govenrmental disaster in quite a long time, so Bush failed at helping properly while still spending money. We spend 1.6 Billion in iraq EVERY DAY.
I have no explanation for Bush's increase in the national debt besides the fact that it began to climb when we invaded Afghanistan. Other than that, I have no explanation or defense on how we're on our way to a 50 year high.

So...how did Bush fail at Katrina..by issuing a state of emergency before the hurricane even reached the shore? Take a look at this timeline:

Saturday, August 27th

FEDERAL EMERGENCY DECLARED, DHS AND FEMA GIVEN FULL AUTHORITY TO RESPOND TO KATRINA: “Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency.” [White House]

Monday, August 29

7AM CDT — KATRINA MAKES LANDFALL AS A CATEGORY 4 HURRICANE [CNN]

That's 48 hours of notice by the federal government. Most natural disasters don't get federal emergencies declared until during or after the storm. How did Bush fail? Was he supposed to magically part the waters to get troops in faster? I'm sorry, but I have yet to hear a valid argument on how BUSH failed in the Katrina disaster. FEMA, maybe. But what was Bush supposed to do?

The invasion of Iraq was unnecessary? Let's ask Bill Clinton about this issue. After coming under fire about why he didn't take the time to take out Saddam or Osama back in the early 90's, he protested that he tried to, but couldn't get the clearance to implement bases near the region. So if that's the case, he obviously agreed on the need to take the 2 men out. The war in Iraq was necessary at the time it began, but now I will say we have done our duty and it is time to begin the process of cutting ties and letting Iraq run itself.

Quote:
I disagree there, I don't see Middle class complaining about taxes. I see the middle class complaining that the 200,000+ people pay far less in taxes.
I didn't say the middle class was complaining about taxes. I said the Liberals were complaining about taxes. What "middle class" are you speaking of? The Massachusetts middle class? Gee, I wonder which way they're slanted.

Quote:
I also disagree here, the politicians may be idiots in some cases, but then again Bush can't even talk.
Now you're just starting to look ignorant...

Quote:
I could also bring global warming in, we've got republicans denying the truth here. I'd like to see a scientifically backed argument saying that it doesn't exist.
If you want to see scientific arguments about global warming, I suggest watching the National Geographic channel or picking up a Popular Science magazine. It has now been proven that the Earth goes through dramatic climate changes in different periods of time. Some people say hurricanes and our wild weather are due to global warming. That, too, is not true. Hurricanes and weather are proportionate to oceanic activity (see Popular Mechanics, October 2006). I'll give it to you, our habits need to change, but not to the point of it being a major campaign issue.
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  #40  
Old 11-01-2006, 04:07 PM
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Default Re: Kerry's statements

in kerry's defense, it was supposed to be a crack at bush's intelligence... or lack thereof... fyi (that'll probly just get him flamed worse, this being a haven of republican heathens :P, but id rather the one to replace bush at least be able to get his point across without offending anyone. bush just makes us all crack up: "man and fish can coexist peacefully.")

as for an extremely informative page on the national debt, here you go http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/ over $8.5 trillion... you can blame clinton all you want, but its bush who keeps signing bills to raise the national debt cieling. "nobody died when clinton lied." (except maybe an unborn child. the world may never know)

im not quite sure why yall are arguing over katrina. to me, it seems like everyone did a horrible job communicating about what to do. bush declared a federal emergency without indicating that FEMA would take over. the guvner of lousiana figured that meant FEMA would take over (since it was kind of a FEDERAL emergency.) he was mistaken. so everyone was screwed.

hob, theres as much evidence of global warming as there is that its a purely natural shift in climate. i wont argue either way.

ahh, the voice of a moderate. its fresh you know? calebh for prez 08
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