View Full Version : Pilot Chopping Machine
03-21-2007, 03:36 PM
First post, but I need some help anyways.
I bought a pilot acs for my son for Christmas 06. Originally we used a gravity feeder. It chopped balls all the time. We never got thru a hopper with out having to take the gun apart to clean it and a hopper with paint blown up into it and all over the balls. I was told at the pb play field that it needed an electric hopper, I asked what was a good one to get, they sugguested a Pulse hopper so I bought one. I installed the transmitter and linked it with the gun. We got only slightly better results than with the gravity feeder. Still unable to get thru a hopper of balls with out a chop and paint in gun and hopper. I did a web search and found this forum and started reading & reading. I ended up breaking in the acs bolt using the three methods I read about. That hasn't seemed to help either. It was suggusted to me by the pb store to send it to Kingman. I e-mail kingman for a RA number. Their responce is that they dont issue RA numbers but to send it in with the warrany information and they will process it. I e-mail back that I have receipt from a November purchase, that it was a Christmas present and that I didnt fill out the warranty card because its supposed to be done with in 2 weeks of purchase and it was over a month from the time I bought it until Christmas. The responce was that it has to be filled out and returned with in 2 weeks. So I have a spyder pilot acs ball chopping machine that kingman wont look at.
I'll wrap this up and ask for some help. I have done everything I know to do. Broke in the bolt, replaced the barrell with one suggusted by the bb store, have used the pulse hopper with and with out the transmitter, I have checked ball speed with a chrono. What else can I do. It does it on semi, and also auto.
Any help is appreciated.
PS I also sanded / cupped the bolt where it touches the ball and its a good smooth finish.
03-21-2007, 03:49 PM
mabey replace the denents. U might need to get a hpa tank.
03-21-2007, 03:50 PM
get a new t-board and put the eyes on it or i heard the q loader feeds pretty fast
03-21-2007, 04:23 PM
I forgot to mention I already replaced the detents with The Killa Magnetic detents, which by the way are really nice pieces. The body of their detents are Alum and high quality. With the bolt out the original detents would let a ball fall thru the detents of you dropped it from the back of the gun. The new detents stop the ball at the detents. Sorry I forgot to mention that.
I have a DM4 that I use so I could easily put HPA to the gun but dont understand why that would make a difference. Its warm now, in Texas, so co2 I thought should be fine. I also have ordered the t board version c with eyes. When I get that installed I'm HOPING it will fix everything, but we'll see. I hate to spend any more money on this marker, but its to the point that I'm going to get this gun up and running or video smashing it with a sledge hammer and e-mail the video to kingman.
I'm going to fix this thing, its my kids gun, one he's been waiting years to get as mom didnt approve until now. He has given up on it and has taken over my DM4, but is really disappointed in the spyder, me too for that matter.
03-21-2007, 05:01 PM
get a new t-board and put the eyes on it or i heard the q loader feeds pretty fast
That's pretty drastic, the stock pilot shouldn't be doing that. Maybe try the HPA and see what happens. It would be nice to get it up and running properly before the new board.
03-21-2007, 05:12 PM
Strange, I don't have many breaks with a set up like yours. Did you try it with the gravity feeder after you broke in the ACS? I do not know much about the Pulse, but my VLosity seems to work fine in mine....
What kind of feedneck are you using? Maybe you are getting some backpressure up the neck...You said you chronoed it...at 280fps? does your Pilot have the back end of the top tube covered? Is there any signs that the cocking pin is striking the back of the slot in the body?
Also, pm 'Kingman Rep' here and see if he can help with the warranty thing...I cannot see them denying you based on the gift/delay....
What kind of paint are you using? is it a good match to the barrel bore? What kind of barrel is it?
Welcome to the forum...there are lots of smart folks here that will do all they can to get your Spyder where it should be.
03-21-2007, 05:52 PM
I think this might be the issue of ACS's and there crappy breach seal, same issue as with the MR2. If you have the option to, I'd suggest replacing the ACS bolt with a different bolt that has o-rings. www.alamocitypb.com has the best I can think of for the price. Make sure if you get one, to get it with two o-rings. Just get the regular one, not the one designed to induce backspin on the ball.
I can't say much about the ACS phenomenon, but I know that using a different bolt with a better seal solves "chopping" issues. Leastways it did for me, and it did for a bunch of people with MR2s.
03-21-2007, 06:06 PM
Hob is right about getting a better seal with an o-ring bolt, but I'm a fan of Bandit bolts. You can get a high quality bolt for LP or HP:
:) Good luck.
03-21-2007, 06:16 PM
I am on some other forums of different interest but have to say you guys are the quickest and more interested than I have experienced before, so THANKS ALOT FOR THE HELP!!!!!!!!!
I did try the gravity feeder after I broke in the ACS bolt, I didn't see any improvement. The feed neck is the stock spyder one on the gun. To fit the hoppers on I used the clear plastic riser/ adapter. Its about 4 inches overall length. I do think I have back pressure as when the hopper get low you can see the balls popping up in the clear plastic adapter between the guns feed neck and the hopper. I think its called popcorning. From what I remember the chrono was low and the highest we could get it to go was 260 something. The guy at the pb store stretched the spring and put it back in to try to raise the chrono. The barrell is a redz. The paint were using is "White Box" some others call it rainbow balls. They are different colors inside and outside. I'm not really sure of the mfg and am not at home right now. The guy at the pb store picked the barrell for us. The balls will not fall thru the barrell but you can blow the ball out fairly easily. The back of the bolt is not covered. It came from kingman with no rear cover. Cocking pin hitting the back of the body. I would say its a definate posibility that it is. We have lost one of the cocking pins. I got a replacement pin and it has been bent twice. I straighten it up and keep using it.
ACS bolt breach seal issues. I'm new to spyders and ACS bolts. I do have a mill and lathe at home so I was thinking of cutting o ring grooves in the stock ACS bolt, simular the the alamocity bolt. This would be very easy to do. If the consensis is that it would help I will do that when I get home Friday.
Again, thanks so much for the help
About PMing Kingman. At this point I think you guys are more help then I would get.
03-21-2007, 06:30 PM
Cutting grooves for o-rings in the ACS has been tried before and doesn't work. The inertia drag created from them causes the acs bolt to partially collapse much as it would during a chop. Popcorning leads me to believe in Hob's call about losing air volume and velocity due to a poorly sealing bolt. That tech who stretched out the spring is a moron. Don't do that, spend $7 on a spring kit and use the correct tension. Each marker is a little different, especially in cookie-cutter massed produced ones. I have my old ACS bolt if you want to try it out, I know it worked fine in my pilot. You pay for shipping and send it back when you're done; the offers there if you want to try it out. I'd personally just go for a better o-ring unit. You may find the velocity goes way up and you'll be turning the velocity adjuster knob out. (decreasing spring tension pre-load) That tech should have tried using the velocity knob, what a dork!
03-21-2007, 06:33 PM
I think you will have better luck trying another bolt instead of machining the ACS for an o ring. The resistance of the o ring will cause the bolt to compress like it is supposed to when there is a ball blocking the breach. You might try to put a couple more holes in the plastic feedneck, if blow back is the problem, that might help. Even a stock aluminum bolt would prove/disprove this theroy...could you borrow one? Also, get a spring kit and fix the bps...no use solving one problem without the other. Lastly, file the back of the top slot to eliminate the cocking pin contact.
Good luck and keep us all informed :)
03-21-2007, 06:58 PM
Bandit bolts are also great. A spring kit is definitely a good thing to have aswell. (32* has the best one). Though, with a better breach seal, you'd have better velocity anyways.
Sandman, the rear velocity adjuster can only do so much, in my experience it has little effect, but it can help a bit. Techs will often do things like that... (its free, and easy for them)
But yeah, def get a bolt with o-rings, your problems will magically be fixed. :)
03-21-2007, 07:14 PM
This is my plan of action.
Drill some holes in the plastic feed neck, I think I can easily fit 4 1/8" holes in the feed neck with out effecting strength too much.(to fix popcorning)
See what happens.
Next order one of the two bolts mentioned. For no reason other than living in Texas I'm thinking of the alamocity bolt, their in San Antonio. I will research this more to try to make an informed decision.
If this resolves the chopping issue, install the t board and eyes that came in today at home.
If not get mad stomp feet, then keep trying.
Pick up a 32* spring kit and get gun to settle in to a more realist FPS speed.
Lastly. When ever I get this thing working I'm going the LP route with it. I've read thru otters pages a few times. I'm planning on modifying the asa where the tank screws on, getting a palmers stabalizer regulator and a new verticle adapter. Modifyling my valve and pin. I will already have the spring kit from above and o ringed bolt. I think thats about it. If I've got something wrong let me know.
When I get home Friday I'll proceed on trying to fix the chopping unless you guys come up with something different. Basically a bolt with orings and do something about the back pressure.
03-21-2007, 08:14 PM
Please don't jump into buying anything right away. I see you've already invested in a new hopper, barrel, detents, and board for this problem, and you're now about to buy a bolt and spring kit. This is a lot of money, especially when the problem has not resolved.
It's entirely possible that some of these upgrades have actually contributed to the chopping. A common problem with force-feed hoppers like the Pulse occurs when the hopper forces the line of paintballs too far into the breach of the marker. This is usually resolved by heavier detents (which you have). Are the Killa detents adjustable? Have you tried tightening down the detents?
Another possible contributor to the chopping is the quality of paint you've cycled through the marker. "Whitebox" is a term used by paintball manufacturers as the lower-quality paintballs (the rejects from the main line). Misshapen paintballs are a frequent cause of breaks.
While it sounds like the bore fitting is correct with your barrel, your barrel is still another potential contributor to the problem.
I am quite curious as to why your marker is not working properly, and I wish I could help more than through the forums.
03-21-2007, 08:38 PM
As everyone else has said, a bolt with o-rings will provide a better seal. I am very pleased with my ACP bolt and it works well with my LP application.
However, as Xy has stated, white box paintballs are not your best friend. They are typically the rejects from every brand so you really can't be sure what you are getting. I'd recommend trying some better quality paintballs that have a slightly tougher shell. I've found Xball bronze to be fairly reasonably priced and work very well. I've also used scorched from walmart and they always seem to do well in a pinch too.
Before you go dropping too much more money, try different paintballs and then maybe a better bolt. It is kind of odd though that your gun seems to chop not matter what. Wish you the best of luck.
03-21-2007, 08:47 PM
I couldn't agree with you more about buying more things to try to fix a gun that never worked, bone stock out of the plastic packaging. I paid as much for the pulse hopper as I did the gun. To me it was a wise investment because it will get used, even if not on the spyder. I've been using it on my DM4 also, to give the Halo B a rest. Not to be argumentative but I really dont think the "upgrades" have contributed to the problem as its done it from Christmas day when I gave it to my son until now. The only reason I've been buying things is in an effort to get it to work like it should have out of the "box". If I had the money back I'd buy another DM4 (used from ebay) and have money left for paint. Maybe I'm being stubborn (sp) but I'm not used to loosing when it comes to mechanical things and am determined to "win". Yea I know childlike, o well. I consider it a challenge. When I bought him the gun I never expected it to work like the mine but I atleast expected it to work correctly.
I appreciate your input and perspective, and your right, good money after bad.
03-21-2007, 08:50 PM
I'll try some different balls. We did run some wal-mart, maybe they were academy, balls thru it with very bad results. I will defenatly try something different for paint.
03-24-2007, 06:29 PM
Heres The Follow Up.
When I Got Home It Was Raining So I Went Ahead And Installed The T Board And Eyes. That Was Very Easy To Do And Went Very Well. I Decided To Go With The Alamo City Bolt Because It Can Be Used Both Hi Pressure And Lo Pressure. It Came In Today And It Quit Raining So We Shot Several Hoppers Of Paint. I Took Your Suggustions And Bought Some Different Paint. I Dont Exactly Know Which Of The Several Things I Did Fixed The Gun But Its Finally Shooting Great. Gravity Hopper With No Breaks, And Pulse Hopper With No Breaks. I Think The Bolt Made A Bug Difference Because It Seems The Fps Is Up Comsiderably But Hasn't Been Chronod Yet.
Thanks To Everyone For All The Help. Its Not A Paint Chopping Machine Any More.
03-25-2007, 05:24 AM
You should now be able to drop the psi down and still maintain a good velocity. Good luck.