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View Full Version : And it begins....


vikingshadow
03-17-2007, 04:29 AM
Is SP starting all over again? (http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=2&page_id=618)

This is not an "Evil Smart Parts" thread - because I don't hate SP. I actually like them, somewhat. Love my shocker and Freak kit...But, with National screwing over several companies, I think we're just seeing the beginning. What do you think?

Sandman_Bravo
03-17-2007, 05:46 AM
I've been reading threads about this on several forums recently, and this is the first I've responded on the topic. I understand that companies spend time and money on research & development of new products, and that they want to protect them. I also realize that there can be "legal bullying" by large companies that can afford to do so. Kingman is an example of a large company that perhaps by the same logic, could have gone after every spyder-clone out there; but didn't. So, I guess I'm kind of on the fence on this, maybe leaning towards the con-SP side. I think competition is healthy and develops our sport while keeping prices down, but manufacturers have to protect their products as well.

Oscum Guy
03-17-2007, 06:05 AM
wtf, did smart parts actually put a patent on electropneumatically operating a paintball marker.


i want to know what these patents that were 'infringed' are. SP is giving themselves a bad name and making enemies. its not worth it.

STRIKEFIRST
03-17-2007, 07:01 AM
National is getting a taste of there own medicine.

If I came up with an ep marker first I'd of patented it in a heart beat!

marvin-martian
03-17-2007, 07:11 AM
how long ago was it that SP did this same thing?

Mr.Untouchable
03-17-2007, 07:57 AM
Seems to me the only marker they could be having a fit over is the Invert Mini and its design... but then again, I do not know. Just my $0.02

thechubbss12
03-17-2007, 08:00 AM
Smart Parts is lame..... I think kingman needs to sue them for just being pathetic....

Oscum Guy
03-17-2007, 08:29 AM
yeah i agree with ^^.

08Lud08
03-17-2007, 10:05 AM
I would sue If I was the company just because the money, but for the people that actually buy the paintball products its bad because there would be less guns choose from. Think if the only guns you could buy were different versions of the same gun.

Backmanshooter
03-17-2007, 10:19 AM
They are getting more pathetic by the lawsuit. They are just beating a dead horse; no point and its a waste of time. I personally dislike them. I've shoot/owned ion,shocker and impulse. I shot the nerve but never owned it. Just not my favorite markers. Anyway, SP thinks they rule the paintball community and can do what they please. They look like idiots sueing every company for a little thing.

SP=Pathetic.

Just my opinion though. ;)

timmyshoota
03-17-2007, 10:50 AM
The Gardners are very smart businessmen. This happens every day in other businesses, but you don't know about it, and it doesn't seem to bother you since you don't know about it.

The patent laws are made to protect what they own, and thats what they are doing.

marvin-martian
03-17-2007, 10:55 AM
theyre running a business, not a charity organization

TheRedBarron
03-17-2007, 10:59 AM
This isnt about the gardners being smart business men, or the fact that in the past SP seemed sue happy, this is the entire paintball industry against national. SP is the only company with the balls and the cash to go up against a powerhouse like NPS. NPS is hurting the industry, SP is simply taking care of the issue.

timmyshoota
03-17-2007, 11:05 AM
NPS is the devil.

DRAGON
03-17-2007, 11:22 AM
There is no more NPS, NPS + PMI = KEE -

Moe
03-17-2007, 01:53 PM
how long ago was it that SP did this same thing?

It was in 2002ish I think. Maybe alittle bit into 2003. All I know is that it was back when I still played.

And, what is so bad about NPS? I really don't know, I haven't been following anything lately.

HelpDeskHustler
03-17-2007, 05:10 PM
It was in 2002ish I think. Maybe alittle bit into 2003. All I know is that it was back when I still played.

And, what is so bad about NPS? I really don't know, I haven't been following anything lately.
They failed to pay procaps which lead to procaps leaving and creating a sub company called DXS. This company began producing products that ROCK HARD, including their pulse loader, which NPS singled out and filed a lawsuit and had court order a tempory cease in sales until DXS goes to court about it, meaning they took the longest way possible, even if they DON'T hold patents procaps is out a lot of money.

NPS has always been stealing designs and buying companies, undercutting quality and neglecting thier end of the bargins (ie PAYING the company)

Smart Parts is not the big name business in this lawsuit, even if you have no idea who KEE is. KEE owns the mini, and it is clearly in violation of automag design which court ruled to be smart parts design and also clearly in violation of spool valve design which is held jointly by dye and smartparts.

TheRedBarron
03-17-2007, 05:56 PM
They failed to pay procaps which lead to procaps leaving and creating a sub company called DXS. This company began producing products that ROCK HARD, including their pulse loader, which NPS singled out and filed a lawsuit and had court order a tempory cease in sales until DXS goes to court about it, meaning they took the longest way possible, even if they DON'T hold patents procaps is out a lot of money.

NPS has always been stealing designs and buying companies, undercutting quality and neglecting thier end of the bargins (ie PAYING the company)

Smart Parts is not the big name business in this lawsuit, even if you have no idea who KEE is. KEE owns the mini, and it is clearly in violation of automag design which court ruled to be smart parts design and also clearly in violation of spool valve design which is held jointly by dye and smartparts.

Well said, welcome to the boards.

Theheroguy
03-17-2007, 09:37 PM
It's not only right for smartparts to sue them its kind of their responsibility to stop the theft of ideas if they can

calebh
03-18-2007, 01:23 AM
didnt ICD make the first EP marker, anyway? thats what im thinking anyway...

Oscum Guy
03-18-2007, 08:14 AM
they make fasor markers.


someone look it up on google patents. i know its there.

TheRedBarron
03-18-2007, 09:09 AM
1996 the Shocker, manufactured by PneuVentures Inc., and distributed exclusively by Smart Parts (patent Oct 19, 1999) is the first electroneumatic paintball marker, PneuVentures and Smart Parts soon parted with PneuVentures in 1997 producing the Shocker, and PneuVentures producing the very advanced Cyber 9000 the first marker with built in LCD screen, also featuring built in chronograph

20 year old, Gino Postorivo started National Paintball Supply as a small retail operation out of the pizzeria's back room. It began with $1,000 from his own pocket. Unlike many paintball supply companies, Johnny Postorivo (NPS' chief operating officer and Gino's cousin) said NPS is not hung up on exclusive deals with the brands it carries. "Everybody has proprietary items. Me, I'll buy anything someone will sell to me," Johnny Postorivo said, adding that he views it as an advantage because all brands can be found in the showroom.

Thought I would throw a little light on the issue.

HelpDeskHustler
03-18-2007, 10:48 AM
didnt ICD make the first EP marker, anyway? thats what im thinking anyway...
the whole thing about EP markers is over, this debate is over spoolvalve and blow forward design.

DRAGON
03-18-2007, 10:50 AM
I could have sworn the Angel existed before the Shocker. Maybe they don't count since they're based in Europe -

HelpDeskHustler
03-18-2007, 11:09 AM
Ok here are some animations to demonstrate what patent infringements we're looking at.

SP owned patents (products made by, or determined design owned by smartparts)

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/ion_twiek.gif
ion, shares likeness to the matrix line, but a shared patent is owned.

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/shocker_stock1_8.gif
shocker, not scale to gun, made to show airflow...

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/automag1.gif
automag, determined by court that it infringes smartparts owned patents.


now here is kee's mini

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/invert_v2_8fps.gif

notice the similarities between it and ALL of the above designs. mainly you are looking at infingement in the frontal bolt area, where air surrounds it and propels it forward in one tube, the spring return found it automags, and then the rear of the firing assembly which shares automag similarity.


if sp wins this it's likely they could shut down another NPS owned business, FEP for their quest.

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/quest1.gif



in theory, either dye, wdp, or smart parts could be suing them since they all share each others' patents.

Oscum Guy
03-18-2007, 11:47 AM
wow ion, shocker, mini and quest is simple. matrix confuse me tho.

Hob Hayward
03-18-2007, 11:56 AM
SP doesn't seem so bad if they were willing to share patents with other companies, I had though they were charging various companies to use their patents, including Kingman for the e-frame.

Though, the way this thread presents it, NPS seems worse than SP to me now...

calebh
03-18-2007, 12:54 PM
http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/automag1.gif
automag, determined by court that it infringes smartparts owned patents.

i must have missed something... i thought it was just the e/xmag that was "infringing" on SPs patents? the mech mag is what, 18 years old? how could any judge possibly decide that a mech mag was infringing on SPs patent when the shocker wasnt even around til 96? the e/xmag, im not sure how old it is...

i never did pay much attention to the whole lawsuit thing...

Hob Hayward
03-18-2007, 01:42 PM
Weird, I was just thinking, how does the valve in a mag even work, looking at that diagram, I can't make sens of it, unless all the valve is is a reg? Damn it, now I want a mag to mess around with :(

HelpDeskHustler
03-18-2007, 02:22 PM
Weird, I was just thinking, how does the valve in a mag even work, looking at that diagram, I can't make sens of it, unless all the valve is is a reg? Damn it, now I want a mag to mess around with :(
Air comes in the rear, where a reg is, the reg balances hpa coming in with lower pressure air by using a spring, when firing a pin blocks airflow to keep the reg from spiking and allowing the bolt to reset, thats pretty much it.

Sp wouldnt allow the Xmag or Emag to continue because they were electronic means of delivering a similar idea to the patent which smartparts had for the shocker. Realizing they would have to pay a large fine and could not/would not pay royalties for xmags and emags, they discontinued their sale of automags.

DRAGON
03-18-2007, 03:23 PM
Too bad, EMags were very sexaaay. I almost bought one but decided Impulse instead. Must be hell getting parts for EMags now -

calebh
03-18-2007, 08:23 PM
yep...

in a mag, the valve and reg are virtually the same thing. you undo that one screw in the back, and the entire tube comes out. its an extremely simple design.

i think agd should get a vague patent on an HPA fired marker and sue SP right back lol.

TheRedBarron
03-19-2007, 11:16 AM
I could have sworn the Angel existed before the Shocker. Maybe they don't count since they're based in Europe -
The angel hit the market first, but the shocker hit production first.

I wanted an angel so bad when they hit the market, too bad I couldnt cope with the price tag at the time. By the time the shocker came out I had enough saved up for the Angel but just got the Shocker instead due to it being "the new thing" too bad the Angel was more advanced... It just took forever for them to finish producing the shocker, the Angel had the design right the first time and went straight to production with it.

HelpDeskHustler
03-19-2007, 02:02 PM
The angel hit the market first, but the shocker hit production first.

I wanted an angel so bad when they hit the market, too bad I couldnt cope with the price tag at the time. By the time the shocker came out I had enough saved up for the Angel but just got the Shocker instead due to it being "the new thing" too bad the Angel was more advanced... It just took forever for them to finish producing the shocker, the Angel had the design right the first time and went straight to production with it.

it seems like thats how it always is...

timbertiger20
03-19-2007, 04:58 PM
The angel hit the market first, but the shocker hit production first.

I wanted an angel so bad when they hit the market, too bad I couldnt cope with the price tag at the time. By the time the shocker came out I had enough saved up for the Angel but just got the Shocker instead due to it being "the new thing" too bad the Angel was more advanced... It just took forever for them to finish producing the shocker, the Angel had the design right the first time and went straight to production with it.

From what I previously understood the original Angel design was a Brass Eagle design and was given to WDP because Brass Eagle didn't think paintball would be going in that direction and didn't want to complete the design. That's according to my paintball history teacher......or something......LOL

calebh
03-19-2007, 09:31 PM
That's according to my paintball history teacher......or something......LOL

paintball history class? in school, maybe? im moving lol

TheRedBarron
03-19-2007, 10:25 PM
From what I previously understood the original Angel design was a Brass Eagle design and was given to WDP because Brass Eagle didn't think paintball would be going in that direction and didn't want to complete the design. That's according to my paintball history teacher......or something......LOL
And that is correct, you have a paintball history teacher? lol

timbertiger20
03-20-2007, 12:31 AM
Something like that. I've got an even better one currently under going our ritual process to become a team member! We just gained Rick Gregory of Lunatic Fringe and the bushwackers. He is bringing out the old tippy that shoots 60 cal rounds out of stripper clips next weekend. Our team is now the biggest active team on the west coast that we know of :) I'm glad I'm one of the first 3 members!