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shunut
01-26-2007, 09:50 AM
I just started playing the guitar. I have had three lessons now and I'm having lots of fun. Part of my lessons is Theory. I'm working in a book from the Musicians Institute called Harmony & Theory by Keith Wyatt & Carl Schroeder. Right now I'm reading about Triads. I understand Major and Minor Traids but I'm having trouble with Augmented and Diminished Traids. I understand that Augmented Traid is a half step above a perfect fifth and Diminished Traid is a half step below a perfect fifth. What I'm not understanding is the structure of the chord. Here is an example:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f395/shunut/Btriad.gif

B + (B Augmented)

Why do you need the sharp on D?


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f395/shunut/Ebdiminished.gif

E b * (Eb Diminished)

Why do you need the flat on G?

I know that it changes the sound of the chord but mathmatically speaking you don't need the extra sharp/flat. If you add up the number of half steps in each fifth you get the same number of flat steps with or without the extra sharp/flat. So can somebody explain to me why they are needed. Thanks.

durrell
01-26-2007, 10:36 AM
I'm no expert on the guitar side of music. But I did play sax for 3 years, and I would imagine the sharp and flat are there just to show the half step. Then again, I could be totally off..that's just a guess. lol.

druid
01-26-2007, 12:14 PM
For 20 years I have played the Bagpipes and I can't even help you...lol. I can't read music. I can read the notes just fine, it's the timing that eludes me. I never took music theory in school and I have had to learn my tunes 'by ear.' My Pipe Major would play the tune into my tape recorder so I had it for home and I would play the tape as I read the notes while I practiced. Sorry bud. Good luck.

maximus100389
01-26-2007, 12:27 PM
im confuesed...why do you have a B sharp chord...shouldnt it be the same thing as a C chord?

badlandsrox
01-26-2007, 01:47 PM
its not a g flat, or a D sharp, its the key signature for that chord

durrell
01-27-2007, 08:12 AM
its not a g flat, or a D sharp, its the key signature for that chord

That's what I was trying to say..I didn't know if guitar sheet music was different from normal sax/piano sheet music.

shunut
01-27-2007, 08:25 AM
Sheet music is sheet music.

And if that is the key signature that still means that its a D sharp and G flat, because all the key signature indicates is that the sharps/flats are to be automatically applied. So a sharp on the D note line or a flat on the G note line indicates that its a D sharp or a G flat. Also if that was the case wouldn't you think the would use the key signature for all the sharps and flats in those examples.

Mormon
01-27-2007, 09:13 AM
There is a whole step in between each note. D# is the same as Eb and there in only a half step between E and F.
Sorry but I don't know much guitar stuff. Played trumpet 8 years.

badlandsrox
01-27-2007, 09:46 AM
Sheet music is sheet music.

And if that is the key signature that still means that its a D sharp and G flat, because all the key signature indicates is that the sharps/flats are to be automatically applied. So a sharp on the D note line or a flat on the G note line indicates that its a D sharp or a G flat. Also if that was the case wouldn't you think they would use the key signature for all the sharps and flats in those examples.

No, they would not do that, the reason they show it, is because if you were to play it an octave higher, then the flat, or sharp still applies, wheras if theey were to only place it infront of the note, it only applies at that octave, also, the other reason that they show the G and D as flat and sharp, is that is the Chord (D sharp, or G flat) (i havent looked at your diagram today, im just goin off memory so i might be thinkin wrong).

shunut
01-27-2007, 09:59 AM
I'm going off what it says in my book and this is exactly what it says a key signature is in my book is:


...for convenience, the sharps are collected at the beginning of a piece of music next to the clef sign. This is called the key signature. Placing the key signature at the beginning indicates that the sharps are to be automatically applied throughout the piece in all octaves. (This saves time that would otherwise be spend writing the sharps or flats in front of each individual net.)...
by Keith Wyatt & Carl Schroeder


In all octaves, that also means the octave the notes a written in above.

Thanks for you help. I didn't want to bug my teacher but I'm going to email him and see what he says.

spyderpaintball
01-27-2007, 10:17 AM
Here this may help its from a couple of my friends in the music program at UD:


Hey, being an ex-music major, I think I know what you're saying. In the case of the B Augmented triad:

First, you need to start with the B Major triad. That being B, D# and F#. When you augment it, you need to start from the major form of the triad, as mentioned. The reason that the sharp sign is in front of the D is to show that the triad is major, considering that there is no key signature in the example. When you double sharp the F, that augments it.

As for the Eb diminished, it's similar to the first case. An Eb major triad would be Eb, G and Bb. Before you make it diminished, you have to make it minor, hence the flatting of the G. Once the G is flat, you have a minor triad, and then you can double-flat the B, making it diminished.

I hope this makes sense to you, if you've got any other questions, tell him, and I'll see if I can help.

shunut
01-27-2007, 10:35 AM
That helps a lot, thanks sp and tell your friend thanks. I understand it now.

spyderpaintball
01-27-2007, 12:38 PM
No problem. It is always nice to have them put knowledge into practice.

leed
01-27-2007, 08:36 PM
You know, I'm amazed they're giving you double sharps/flats if you're just starting out.. LOL. I didn't learn Double Sharps/Flats until I started playing chamber music...

durrell
01-28-2007, 09:25 AM
It's a good thing he's learning theory to begin with, that means he will be able to play anything they throw at him once he learns the actual notes on the guitar.

invisibledrummer
01-28-2007, 11:57 AM
Triad, chords? cant help you on the triad (ive never heard of that before) and i dont play chords since i play the drums but its cool to see another paintball take an interest in music.

good luck

drummer

shunut
01-28-2007, 12:33 PM
It's a good thing he's learning theory to begin with, that means he will be able to play anything they throw at him once he learns the actual notes on the guitar.

Yeah, definitely, pretty much exactly what my teachers said. He also highly suggested Theory and I wanted to learn it before I went in for my first lesson. Theory has a lot to do with mechanics and math. I love math and am pretty good at it so it was an easy decision to make when my teacher said he could teach me it. I only wish I had more than 30 minutes a week of class time.