PDA

View Full Version : double firing (no it hasn't really been addressed)


FenixAggrevation
12-21-2006, 06:45 PM
I have a spyder fenix. I bought this gun used. Since I have had this gun I have had problems with it. I have seen that many people have posted about this already but there don't seem to be any fixes. Just dead end suggestions.

1. The gun double-fires. One trigger pull, two shots cycled. Even when the the gun is on bursts or auto some shots will double cycle.

2. Trigger bounce -- Not likely, on semi auto I make sure that I firmly hold the trigger. Also, when I use burst it fires three burst plus whatever double cycles that occur. The double cycle is a very noticeable, very fast second shot. Tried using faster hopper, including Q-loader, but the cycle is either too fast or not a complete cycle.

3. Have found that if I turn the regulator down to 300-400 psi it will reduce the double fires and sometimes eliminates them. Also, my brother-in-law has an 06 Electra with eyes. and he has to turn his reg down to reduce double fire.
4. Tried to replace the main spring with high velocity spring to compensate for the 220 fps chrono speeds. Problem is that the gun will double-fire at even lower pressures. Even to the point of burping because the air is too low to cycle (300psi).

5. Decided to go all out and replace nearly all internal parts. Sear, Striker, valve, valve pin, cup seal, and all o-rings. And just for kicks I put in an acs bolt (have the pre-ACS version.) 100 bucks spent and the gun work just the same. Hence the user-name "FenixAggrevation".

Put the trigger frame on an unregulated stock mr1 and nearly every shot was
double firing. A little rough on my new sear.

Have searched this forum for "double firing". And it seems lots of folks are having the same prob. Ball detents? don't think so, the gun is cycling twice, not shooting two balls at same time. Usually chops the second ball.

Finally came across someone who said make sure the noid hasn't moved, and if that doesn't fix it shim the noid by putting a peice of metal the thickness of a dime behind the noid. Decided to try the shim. Found a piece of metal the thickness of a dime (used a dime). made sure the noid was all the way forward and put the dime behind the noid. Used stock valve spring and medium main spring from 32* spring kit. Ran several rounds of co2 through the gun even tried walking the trigger and short stroking the trigger to get it to double fire. It's fixed!!!

Wait a minute, I decided to put the high velocity spring in. Still no double fires. Went out to the back yard, and ran paint with both springs. No double-firing. Not sure why it is working, or if it is fixed for good. The dime does remove the slack between the sear and noid in the cocked position. This test was done at 600 psi, not sure what velocity. Obviously I am using co2 (20oz). And I think the outside temp was about 40-45 degrees.
going to try it with HPA soon (with and without the dime). would like to know why this works, and if I am risking damage to noid?

Will post the results of hpa test.

bigred76
12-21-2006, 07:22 PM
It works because of the shorter time for the solenoid to fully cycle. Sometimes the marker recocks too much for its own good.

Basically, when it double fires, the sear isn't being reset quick enough. By shortening that total distance it travels with the dime, it can go from one place (up and cocked) to the other (down and uncocked) quicker. Since it's going to and fro and to, it gets that time you shortened it by twice, thus making it only needed for a small shim.

Hope that clears it up a bit for you...

FenixAggrevation
12-22-2006, 10:08 AM
aggrevation is what you get when you spend 100 bucks on a gun and then end up fixing it for 10 cents. Well at least it works now. What really sucks, is that I was trying to get it to work like it should. All the replacement parts are stock replacements, no upgrades

Hob Hayward
12-22-2006, 11:16 AM
I had a similar problem, but it was because my cyclic weight was too low, and I was outcycling the sear activation time. Make sure your capacitor isn't damaged. It could be holding the sear down for too long.

FenixAggrevation
12-22-2006, 11:55 AM
I had a similar problem, but it was because my cyclic weight was too low, and I was outcycling the sear activation time. Make sure your capacitor isn't damaged. It could be holding the sear down for too long.
Any way to know if this is the case? was messing around with the gun today and it began to double fire after I had left it on and pressured up for about 20 minutes. was getting to the end of the co2 tank but I was still getting pressures of 600 psi when it started double-firing.

Would appreciate any help I can get, and if others have had similar problems with double firing, please post.

FenixAggrevation
12-22-2006, 12:01 PM
This is why my new primary is a 98 custom with response trigger and cyclone feed. Response trigger stops working correctly, just change the bottle.

Sure would like to feel good about the money I have sunk into this spyder though.

FenixAggrevation
12-22-2006, 01:57 PM
We do not "Up" non-sales threads on this site. You will have a PM

FenixAggrevation
12-22-2006, 02:05 PM
I did notice that Otter used a fenix to make his Spimmy. Is that because it makes a crappy spyder?

FenixAggrevation
12-24-2006, 08:14 PM
Ok, Since noone seems to do alot of posting here I am just finishing this thread for posterity. The shim (dime) behind the noid seems to have fixed the double firing.
Had Bro-in-law do some drilling to give the gun more air flow. (Don't trust myself when it comes to drilling my $200.00 gun.) Drilled out the hole in vert adapter to match the one on bottom, coming off reg.

**Be warned you will likely drill into the screw hole that holds the vert adapter to frame.** Don't blame me, if you follow this info. **

A fair amount of teflon tape, or maybe thread sealer will stop the leaking. (I had teflon tape handy so that is what I used.) Took a decent amount to get the leaking stopped, but it was worth it.

Also drilled the top hole of the valve out and grinded down the valve pin, to look more like the one that came with his 06 Electra.

Just to let you know, we got most of our info from OttersC. The Spyder authority. http://www.ottersccustoms.com/spyder.html

Put my polished striker back in, since the new parts I bought didn't change anything.

***The Results.***
Stock valve spring (well broken in), and medium "32 degrees" Main spring gets me 280-290fps at a reg pressure of 400psi. Had to back the velocity adjuster almost all the way out.

**Compare that to.**
Before, I couldn't get the fps past 240-250 with a High velocity main spring, cranked all the way in. And that was with a reg presure of 600psi. Don't forget that I could even adjust up to 600psi before I shimmed the noid, and the heavy mainspring would have double and triple fired just about every shot.

Also had him drill two small holes in the feedneck to help with blowback.

Will have to test gun in field to be sure, but far as I can tell...
GUN FIXED

ballerfolife
12-26-2006, 06:42 AM
Ok I'm having the same problem with my Pilot ACS. You think putting a dime behind the noid will help?



EDIT:nevermind just tried it out and it was worse.

FenixAggrevation
12-26-2006, 02:08 PM
Did you make sure the noid was all the way forward? There are set screws that hold it in place. Also if you replaced the main spring with a stiffer spring this could be the prob.

FenixAggrevation
12-26-2006, 03:16 PM
also, I think the pilot is a little more prone to trigger bounce. Make sure the adjustment screw is set where it isn't touching the switch when released. Back off the center set screw, so the switch can be fully pressed. If this fixes it, probably just trigger bounce. Guy at my local pro shop said send it to Kingman and they will fix it. He said the customer service is much better than folks on the net say it is.