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View Full Version : "What is a Mid level/High End gun"


calebh
10-28-2006, 09:08 PM
whats with all the stock or near stock markers? sure, theyre great looking markers, but there's someone else out there with the exact same marker unless you customize it. zenix...

Ace24
10-28-2006, 09:53 PM
Lisa isnt stock lol.

vikingshadow
10-29-2006, 04:10 AM
Well, for the question as to why they are stock - most of the higher end guns don't need anything added to them. They're pretty close to perfect right out of the box. That, or all the aftermarket parts are internal (which may only be one or two pieces....)

Keep voting! I think this month is one of the highest voted in polls I've had!

Hob Hayward
10-29-2006, 07:54 AM
Well, for the question as to why they are stock - most of the higher end guns don't need anything added to them. They're pretty close to perfect right out of the box. That, or all the aftermarket parts are internal (which may only be one or two pieces....)

Keep voting! I think this month is one of the highest voted in polls I've had!

Main exception to that is ions.

vikingshadow
10-29-2006, 09:13 AM
I don't really consider Ions to be "high end" because they need those extra parts to make them reach that level. I consider them mid level guns, with potential to be high level guns. My definition, while loose, is that a high end gun comes with everything it needs to make it top of the line - the additions of aftermarket parts are more for preference and feel, not performance (I know the Shocker bolt leaves this definition to question, but some of us, me included, didn't see that much trouble from them.)

This is my opinion, of course, but if you'll notice, everyone who gets an Ion eventually starts upgrading the CRAP out of them. If the Ion were to be considered high end, then you must consider T1's, Wraths and Zip Kit guns as high end to because they are just as capable as the Ion.

Ace24
10-29-2006, 09:30 AM
If the Ion were to be considered high end, then you must consider T1's, Wraths and Zip Kit guns as high end to because they are just as capable as the Ion.
That makes me feel good about my gun. :D

vikingshadow
10-29-2006, 11:04 AM
:rolleyes:

Hob Hayward
10-29-2006, 11:22 AM
I don't really consider Ions to be "high end" because they need those extra parts to make them reach that level. I consider them mid level guns, with potential to be high level guns. My definition, while loose, is that a high end gun comes with everything it needs to make it top of the line - the additions of aftermarket parts are more for preference and feel, not performance (I know the Shocker bolt leaves this definition to question, but some of us, me included, didn't see that much trouble from them.

So by your definition, Phantom's are high end. I suppose they acctually are high end, as pumps go.

vikingshadow
10-29-2006, 01:02 PM
Yes, by my definition, in the pump world, Phantoms are high end.

Of course, not just my definition - just about everyone who plays pump says that! ;)

vikingshadow
10-29-2006, 01:05 PM
Started this thread to get rid of the clutter (without deleting) from the "Of the Month" thread.

Feel free to post your thoughts on Low end, high end and mid level guns - be civil, and be nice!

timbertiger20
10-29-2006, 03:58 PM
My Cyborg has no upgrades........the upgrades that have been tried have proven to be hit and miss. The tolerances on the aftermarket pieces are problematic. I debated changing the HPR but +\- 3 and 34 BPS is less than convincing on need of a new reg. Since the anno I'm also getting 2200 per 68/4500. And 2700 ish on my 90/4500

SharpObjects
10-29-2006, 04:18 PM
Might I ask, what is the Spyder VS? My buddies had a conversation about that. I know most will say low-end, but it seems ready out of the box to go compete. Type of marker operation shouldn't matter if it's high or low-end IMO. And just because it's a Spyder shouldn't matter.

If Dye or Bob Long made a blowback, and everything was the same except the type of marker operation, would it be considered high-end?

One other question, would most agree an Autococker Superstock is mid-range?

vikingshadow
10-29-2006, 04:29 PM
Well, in my opinion, in the case of the Spyder, tolerances are the issue here. It's a known fact that the tolerances from gun to gun are not that great - whereas on most "higher level" and "mid level" guns are much more consistant. And, there is an issue with blowback markers - they operate at much higher pressures and without major upgrades, you have kick, heaviness, inconsistant trajectories, so forth and so on. Upgrading is virtually a necessity - even based on your signature, NO ONE goes into a tournament with a spyder that isn't upgraded to the max!

As far as the VS series, my question is this - is the VS really ready to go right out of the box? Seems to me that there are people talking about it needing certain upgrades to make it better...it definitely fits the definition of "mid level" in my mind, but high end? While it's a step in the right direction, I'm not sure it's that much of a leap...

Now, I agree that operation may or may not be a factor, however, with the new valve and lower pressure which gives it virtually no kick, doesn't that set it apart from the regular Spyder line? Without shooting one or seeing one in person, I can't give an accurate definition to it.

vwjimmy
10-29-2006, 04:36 PM
The funny thing about this discussion is that the 'High' end markers this year are the mids of tomarrow and the lows of the day after that.....
Meaning that my 3 year old "High End" Angel is now mid at best....
Personally, design breakthru's are what make a marker special in my book..
Now, if you are competing Pro...well, I guess it makes more of a difference to you...to me, not so much...

marvin-martian
10-29-2006, 04:37 PM
Might I ask, what is the Spyder VS? My buddies had a conversation about that. I know most will say low-end, but it seems ready out of the box to go compete. Type of marker operation shouldn't matter if it's high or low-end IMO. And just because it's a Spyder shouldn't matter.

If Dye or Bob Long made a blowback, and everything was the same except the type of marker operation, would it be considered high-end?

id say the VS is competing in the mid-level world, but i doubt it will go far.

and i would also argue blowbacks capability of becoming high-end. the feel of blowbacks and EPs is greatly differant, and they also have a huge gap between their operating pressures. EP slaughters blowback in both of these fields.

vikingshadow
10-29-2006, 04:41 PM
For the record - I'm just playing Devil's Advocate (DA for short) here. I have definite opinions, as most of you know, about things, but I want this to be a good natured debate and not an argument. I'm only spouting arguments that I've heard before, and some of which that I agree with.

VW - you're right. My Angel is definitely mid level now - the A1, the Gat, the G7, the 06 add a name here, all are lighter, faster and easier to handle than my 04 Speed. Whatever's hot right now, and whatever the pro's are using are the guns that are considered "high end."

Look at the Ion - when it came out, it was advertised as mid level by Smart Parts, then everyone and their dog started talking about how good it was, then it was suddenly thrust into the "high end" category. Then, all the newer people were buying it, and suddenly, it's a noob gun. Yet, in my mind, the definition never did change.

As far as Superstock, I don't know that much about it.

timmyshoota
10-29-2006, 04:46 PM
My Timmy would be ready to roll right out of the box. Its got everything you need to compete. The only things mine have are unnecessary. I've got a new trigger, which is a feel thing, new feedneck which is about convenience and a new barrel which was because I didn't have one. :\ The only thing I'm looking at changing now is the board. If I played a semi tourney, it'd be great, but I play a PSP rules tourney. My board doesn't come with a true PSP mode and I'd like one. It doesn't hamper me, but I just like to have it.

I would never consider a blowback to be anything more than low end. Sorry, but thats what they are. They are great beginner guns and once you progress, you can get something better. Blowbacks just have too many deficiencies and even when you upgrade them to fix the problems, new ones arise. Vike mentioned the tolerances, and thats a big issue, but even with great tolerances you'd still have many hurdles to overcome. I used a Spyder when I played with friends in the woods. It worked great and when I upped it, I had the best shooting marker on the field. I upgraded to better guns when I moved onto better things.

vikingshadow
10-29-2006, 05:00 PM
^^^Agreed - another big issue with sear-tripping, blow-back operation is the high occurances of burping, machine gunning (sear not catching), decocking etc. ...it just happens. I played with a Spyder clone (TES) in my first tournament and rocked it, but I had all kinds of issues with it that the other guns just didn't have. Several of the old timers here know that I was never happy with just a plain gun out of the box, so it was upgraded like crazy and an awesome gun, just not super reliable in a tournament. I moved on to different operations and was much happier in the type of play I had chosen.

Now, my spyder had several hundred dropped into it and it was one of the best guns on most fields I played on (even had cool camo tape!), but I don't think I would have trusted it like I did my Shocker, my Angel, my T1's or my Phantom.

DRAGON
10-29-2006, 06:00 PM
$0 - 50 = Crap*
$50 - 350 = Low*
$350 - 800 = Mid*
$800 - ???? = High*

* = End :butwiggle:

vikingshadow
10-29-2006, 08:19 PM
Hahaha - I wondered when you were going to show up in here....

calebh
10-29-2006, 08:53 PM
cool, i should make more threads without making them :P

Ace24
10-29-2006, 10:55 PM
$0 - 50 = Crap*
$50 - 350 = Low*
$350 - 800 = Mid*
$800 - ???? = High*

* = End :butwiggle:
:yeahthat:

:lol:

phatphil
10-30-2006, 04:28 PM
I'd like all my votes in Part A to be tallied together. :dodgy:

Ace24
10-30-2006, 04:53 PM
Hahah. You wouldnt get past Sarah. That monster ION is going to win... :(

I have to say, seeing it made me want to make an ION like it. But... I forgot about not wanting battery operated electrophnumatic scenario guns. :(

bamf-hacker
10-30-2006, 07:30 PM
Sara very low end :dodgy:

But she mows faces ;) and is HAWT!!!