View Full Version : LP Project tinkerers welcome!
10-13-2006, 05:43 AM
I'm currently thinking of a way to do this to my AMG, without having to use the Balanced valve as a guide. My gun operates at 300psi already but I'm still trying to suck every ounce of performance out of it.
Heres my Setup:
NDZ Valve Assembly
Light Valve Light Main Springs
Slightly Lightened Delrin Bolt
Lightened and Polished Striker
X-rings on all moving parts
AMG Bottomeline Regulator (PLanning on getting a doolie for higher flow)
Now to the Project, need some help with this so please share your thoughts. The less reciprocating mass you have the less psi you need to recock correct? So I've been thinking of ways to lighten both the main and valve spring as much as possible, but still keeping them strong enough to push the stem forward. You also have to put into consideration that the airflow behind the cup seal is pushing the stem forward, therefore requiring a stronger force from the opposite side, but by lowering the PSI the pressure decreases on the cupseal therefore making it easier to push back, but you need a spring weak but strong enough to seal it back.(hope this makes sense) YOu need to mess alot with springs tensions and flow. AMG's have great flow and excellent volume (volume is a key factor for LP Spyders). I'm still in the process of thinking this over...
As I said before, please share your thoughs! Thanks :)
10-13-2006, 08:37 AM
What about a titanium striker?
I've seen used for less than 20 bucks.
I'd be tempted to try a rocket valve...not that NDZ isn't good...but more flow out of the rocket.
10-13-2006, 09:12 AM
My stock striker is pretty light and has the otter mods done to it. Polished, Lightened and Cupped on the back.
Rocket Valve I'm willing to try, but I'm trying too see how far I can push the NDZ Valve without having to spend more money. Although Money isn't too much of an issue, I'm just trying to do it without spending money. I've gotten my Psi down to ~275 @ 300fps. Trying to push down further.
10-13-2006, 09:49 AM
Lightening the springs doesn't help. You need to play with spring combos to see which works best for you. Just because its LP doesn't mean you have light springs. I had a stock valve and heavy main spring in my AMG and it was running at its lowest of any combo of springs.
10-13-2006, 11:37 AM
I got a rocket valve recently it was a large step up from the NDZ, though I had just switchedto a DH stitanium striker aswell, so it might work out differently for other people. I need a new gauge to see what my operating ressure is, and tmrow I'll see what my velocity is.
10-14-2006, 05:25 AM
Well I was able to get my spyder down to 200psi and lowest to 150psi. So not bad.
10-14-2006, 06:10 AM
alot of people think with a lighter striker, they need a stronger main spring because they have less mass. trying to tune your marker this way will increase kick and will be hard on balls. i tune the other way. i keep a light main in if i can and use a weaker valve spring to make the valve pin move easer. i have clipped valve springs so far on many markers that the spring only keeps the valve pin in line and the air pressure is the spring. a lighter better fitting striker is not harder to recock unless you have a strong spring behind it. to many people think they can drop in a lighter striker and ther marker will be LP. it is all about oposing spring pressurs. alot of people think the lower the PSI, the better ther marker is. this is not true either. most LP markers i tune run 300- 350 ish. to me this is a good place to be. alot of markers running 200 psi have problems at high rates of fire or shoot down. now im not saying that strong springs dont work, many people run there markers this way. when it come to LP, i belive tunning and understanding how the markers flow and opperate is key.
IMO Eaglelox makes a very good point, You can see from my sig my set up, I can get my pilot to operate down to ~100 psi, however the fps is and more importantly the markers efficiency is terrible. It obviously cycles much slower and I get considerable less shot per tank fill. I did Otter's recommended spring combination recording chart while shooting over the chrono, and for my marker (and a friends marker that I mod'd identical to my own); from 225 psi to around 275 psi I found that using the stock valve spring and med/low spring from an extreme rage kit kept me easily in the 275 to 290 fps (fps adjusted using the velcotiy adjuster for each 25 psi increase in reg pressure) range. From 275 to 350 psi (that's where I stopped testing) the black vavle spring (32* spring kit) and the low main spring (xtreme rage kit) worked very well keeping me in the target 275-290 fps range. Since I have an air source available I kept my tank full between each test. When I put the light valve spring in with the light main spring I would get air leaking past the cup seal when I initially aired up the marker. It would stop leaking once I cocked the bolt. Because of this I decided to stay with the medium and high vavle springs for testing. I decided after reviewing the test results that for my marker the stock valve spring (roughly equivalent to the heavy 32* gold spring) and the low main spring gave me the best results b/t 250 and 275 psi. As I tested I also recorded the tank pressure drops after each test to find which combination gave me the most efficiency (before I tested I recorded tank pressure and re-filled to 800 psi everytime, I shot exactly 20 balls per test). I found that at 275 psi with my velocity adjuster in the middle of its adjustment range it shot 275-280 fps with the least amount of air used. Now there are all kind of variables that could alter the test results and since I am pretty much at sea level where I live and the temp was around 80* with very little humidity, my result will be very different from someone elses at a different climate. The thing I found most interesting is that as I continued to decrease my psi (below 250 psi) my efficiency fell off. I just finished moding my stock ACS bolt so it now has o-rings (its not air-tight but the amount of air blowing past is dramatically less), I plan on re-running the test to see how much it has impacted my numbers. Sorry for the Thesis, hopefully some of it helps.
10-14-2006, 05:28 PM
Useful Information thank you.
Now I've been doing some messing around with the spring combos and came up with a little experiment. I decided to cut the medium spring about 1cm-2cm and kept my valve spring with the medium heavy valve. With this my gun kicks very little but the fps is about 150-200fps @ 300psi (not certain about fps, I'm just doing it towards distance). Now I've increased the psi to about ~450psi and still remain little kick but my fps is just not there yet. Now do you think having a lighter valve will help (higher flow) or a stronger valve (less flowing but has a better return cause of the spring strength)?
Would appreciate input! :)
after you cut the main spring did you strech it a little? I suggest bringing your pressure back down to where you want it and give that a shot. I don't like cutting the springs b/c you never know what your gonna get, and once it's done theres no going back. If you can pick up an extreme rage main spring kit. It has four main springs which gives you a little more flexibility with different combo's. As far as the vavle spring goes, in theory the lighter the spring the easier the valve opens and longer it will stay open. The only thing I know for sure is the combo that worked for my marker. I read a post that someone had cut their vavle spring (lightened it) to the point that it basically kept the valve pin in place and that was it. I know that when I went below ~275 psi and had the low valve and low main I had the cupseal vavle leak problem and I couldn't get my fps over 260. Medium/low main spring brought me up to 270 fps but I still had the leak. The medium valve spring resolved the leak issue. What I did was decided what psi I wanted to run at and then experimented with spring combos till I hit my target velocity. The big thing is that you need a chrono to know for sure what spring combo is working and what's not.
10-18-2006, 03:29 PM
eagle is right i got a nightstriker XL from him, it took a lot more tinkering than i thought. im down to 400psi right now with soft main/valve springs, and the knob is cranked all the way out. at high ROF it'll uncock btw the fps is around 270. i sanded down the NDZ valve pin at the back where it is going through the small hole in the valve letting air through, that helped a bit. i think im going to need a tornado valve to use it properly.