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View Full Version : i was thinking about this..


bomberpilot07
01-06-2006, 10:51 AM
i just got my rocket valve but i need to raise my fps and lower my psi, so im gonna swiss cheese mod my striker. i had one question for anyone who has done it. if i did not put the holes the exact same lengths apart and evenly disperse what i drill wouldnt that just cause i recocking issue? it may not but then again hmm... and for those who have a rocket valve, if i cut another blowback port with my dremel on the opisite side of the old one would that make a more even air flow?

i think to much :smirk:

DRAGON
01-06-2006, 11:33 AM
Sry, I don't understand your rationale:

If you make the striker lighter, you'll need to up the pressure to achieve a higher velocity lol -

If you made another port, it would just channel excess pressure to the striker that's not needed -

If you have no experience with this valve in the first place, why are you going to mess with it before you have even the slightest of it's potential the way it is now? Just sounds like you're going to deform some parts before you've even given them a chance to perform well in their stock state - :confused:



i think to much :smirk:

Ya.......may be lol -

DexGtr
01-06-2006, 11:40 AM
no need to that to your striker. I did it to mine...and didn't change a thing.

BTW what psi are you shootinh now and how low are you planning to go? from my experience 300-350 is the most reliable, you could go lower but that just brings on more problems and you marker will just be unreliable.

bomberpilot07
01-06-2006, 11:54 AM
its about 375 psi. i took it out in the back yard to shoot it...
i dont have a chrono but im pretty sure its shooting around 200 fps probably lower

and drago, if i lightened my striker and put in a heavy main spring wouldnt that make up for the velocity and still recock at the same psi? currently i have the light spring in it cause the heavy would sputter, and the medium would jackhammer.

DexGtr
01-06-2006, 12:25 PM
that would still be the same...if you lightened the striker but put a heavy main spring is almost the same as having a heavy striker and light spring., and don't cut another blowback port...just screw the SRP all the way out and just widen the gap on blowback port of the rocket valve a little, not too much or you lose fps. a med spring should work with a normal striker.

btw have you widened the port on the VA? that would really help your airflow issues if you haven't.

bomberpilot07
01-06-2006, 12:42 PM
that would still be the same...if you lightened the striker but put a heavy main spring is almost the same as having a heavy striker and light spring., and don't cut another blowback port...just screw the SRP all the way out and just widen the gap on blowback port of the rocket valve a little, not too much or you lose fps. a med spring should work with a normal striker.

btw have you widened the port on the VA? that would really help your airflow issues if you haven't.
well i got the rocket valve used so i cant screw it out anymore :-/. and i widened the va as much as i could.

DRAGON
01-06-2006, 12:59 PM
I've noticed it seems that anyone that gets a used rocket valve and has probs with it, got it from someone that cut the valve pin too short and had recocking or velocity probs. They sell the valve because it's almost impossible to get a repair kit for them. You might try getting a repair kit before you pursue this any further otherwise you may be starting from a point where you cannot attain your goal at all no matter what you do. I would always deter anyone from buying a used rocket valve from someone that already cut the valve shaft -

The dealio with the springs is pretty much what Dex mentioned. If you use a heavier spring all it really does is makes it that much more difficult to recock the striker and if you have a misfire, the ball will most assuredly be chopped. The ultimate IMO is leaving the SRP opened as much as possible and using the lightest spring possible. That makes a nice dwell, recocking is simple and if there's a misfire, the bolt is less likely to chop the ball. Mine will just stop on the ball in this configuration -

DexGtr
01-06-2006, 01:12 PM
I've noticed it seems that anyone that gets a used rocket valve and has probs with it,

i had endless probs with the rocket valve....sometimes during agame the SRP would loosen and fall off and this is when it was loctited in there.

BTW to get my rocket valve working i had to use it in the fully opened position didn't even have to cut the valve stem, next thing you'll see is that the spring will compress and it will be loose and jiggling around in there.

my advice is ...get a better valve.

bomberpilot07
01-06-2006, 01:23 PM
:headbrick: this is a pain

DRAGON
01-06-2006, 02:02 PM
I tried all the different springs(32* & Shocktech) including stock. Also tried different SRP locations and wide open/light spring worked best for my particuar setup. Doesn't mean it will be best for someone elses though. I took the whole valve apart, polished everything and used alcohol to clean it before reassembly. Used red loctite on the SRP and it has never come undone since. I have thus far used it in 2 different markers and worked great in both. They are a pain for some to set up and I really don't see why since mine wasn't that much a hastle to -

A great product but I would never purchase any other Maddman products again because if their lack of honest management. Nothing to do with the product itself but a very disappointing result from an order I made with them. I will not support such a company again no matter how good their products are - :dodgy:

bomberpilot07
01-07-2006, 07:02 PM
muahahah i got it working.... shooting at 350ish psi. havent chronoed it today but i will tomorrow... i got it to work, i replaced the noid and no jackhammers :). im gonna get it chronoed tomorrow when i go to the feild

im def getting a vid of this hawt mofo

adrianm1188
01-07-2006, 07:54 PM
Yup. Maddman doesnt hae good customer service.

I bought a rebuild kit from them recently, when it came The SRP was defective. The top part of the SRP had plastic over it.

Put it this way, the SRP allows the pin to grow through it right? Well the one he sent me had the material its made out of covering the top hole. (think of a soda bottle cap when screwing it on the bottle)


So yea, i told him, hasnt responded. Emailed him again, Hasnt responded. Im no pleased.


Dragon, Is this SRP a "new version" or is it just defective?

I had a thought that maybe he made it that way so the pin wouldnt push though the SRP and strip it. Whatya think?

DRAGON
01-07-2006, 08:29 PM
Ya the SRP should be essentially like a plastic nut that's round on the outside. Threads on the inside to thread onto the valve shaft which should protrude all the way through. Have you tried just cutting the hole all the way through w/o cutting into the threads? Seen someone selling a repair kit in the b/s/t today for $10. There's pics there too -

I literally waited 4 months before they straightened my concern out. This only because I finally called the BBB & cops on them. Once they have your cash, they ignore you and customer service seem to be non-existent or they feed you a bunch of lies to buy time. This was my experience anyways -

adrianm1188
01-07-2006, 08:41 PM
Yea, i dont see point in cutting it bcuz he would have done a ****ty job on threading the SRP if he couldnt have penetrated the bit through.

I just used my old valve pin on the rocket valve since it was already filed down and used the lil "defect" to my advantage.

...Still, i dont like recieving half-ass products when im paying 15$ for a pin, spring and a peice of plastic. =]

bomberpilot07
01-08-2006, 07:15 PM
hehe 250 psi shooting 260fps today. ya thats hawt

DRAGON
01-08-2006, 07:54 PM
Best to keep it around 300psi for efficiencies sake. What main spring?

bomberpilot07
01-08-2006, 08:00 PM
heavy..

bigred76
01-08-2006, 08:06 PM
Best to keep it around 300psi for efficiencies sake.
I disagree, Drago....Long story short, PM me for why. ;)

DRAGON
01-08-2006, 08:07 PM
Try a lighter one if possible like medium or light. It will bring up the pressure a bit but yield less recoil and less chance of chops. Efficiency should be better as well. Lowest pressure is not the goal, remember? -

I disagree, Drago....Long story short, PM me for why. ;)

You can share with all. We won't tell too many lol - ;)

bomberpilot07
01-08-2006, 08:09 PM
yes. i am going to have to turn up my pressure anyways in order to run nitro :(.

bigred76
01-08-2006, 08:09 PM
Not quite true, Ninja Moderator. :p I don't want to get into an arguement about it in poor ol' Dougie's thread, so I think we might wanna take this side topic to PMs. ;)

DRAGON
01-08-2006, 08:12 PM
Oh com'mon.....we don't argue here, we discuss rational opinions and Doug won't mind. It keeps his thread to the top -

bomberpilot07
01-08-2006, 08:13 PM
yesh :tongue: lol im on the phone with red right now.

bigred76
01-08-2006, 08:14 PM
Fine, give me a minute to transfer the stuff from the PM I was writing to you....


HPA Tanks:
Shots Per Size Formulas

PSI (tank 1) X CU (tank 2) / shots (per full tank) = PSI per shot

T1 * T2
S

E.G. 141,000PSI divided by 750 shots per full tank equals 188PSI per shot
(141000/750=188)


PSI (tank 1) X CU (tank 2) / PSI per shot = shots (per full tank)

T1 * T2
P

E.G. 68ci times 45000PSI divided by 260PSI equals 1176.92307692 shots
(68*4500/260≈1177)

The first marker is my Spyder Imagine. The second marker is Bomberpilot's ProMaster.
The first marker is my Spyder Imagine. The second marker is Bomberpilot's ProMaster.

These equations work on these markers because the internal volume is 1 cubic inch. On other markers, like Intimidators, the internal volume is slightly different. To find the exact size that the internal volume of their V/A and LPR is, I would need to fill one with water and measure every last drop of it. AKA, I'm still working on it. ;)

TL;DR: Lower pressure does equal better efficiency SO LONG AS you are talking about an LP running pressure, which I classify as a pressure that your marker shoots 275fps at...

Oh, and yes. I did come up with those by myself. I got kinda bored one day LOL! [/ninja edit spree]

DRAGON
01-08-2006, 08:54 PM
Nice equations but theory is often offset by reality(one of DRAGON's favorite proverbs). You've left out a bunch of variables such as pressure rating, flow property, flow properties of the valve and regulator, flow properties of the propellant tank, weight of the striker, not only spring weight but spring tension since it is adjustable, shall I go on? This is why you cannot say a certain tank will yield 'X' amount of shots per tank especially with our different LP Spyder setups. Thus another ton of variables from the different modifications and components available on the market. To say that if my Spyder ran at 150psi I'd have better efficiency than if it ran at 300psi is totally incorrect. If you want to dabble in equations, figure out how much total volume of pressure for each shot it takes to push a ball through a barrel at 280fps at 150psi as compared to 300psi not theoretically equating volumes of space within a tank and the marker tubes. It takes less volume to push the ball at 300psi than it does at 150psi. Finding the mean flow per volume per velocity is the key to efficiency -

I know this is speaking of another marker but use the new and old Shockers as an example. They both run at extremely low pressures but are total gas hogs from the box. It takes an aftermarker bolt kit to prudently shave that bad efficiency into a more respectable state -

Low pressure does not mean less pressure. Seems that some confuse both because it comes to mind when you say it. They are not synonymous in the least. I'd like to hear Otter's imput on this subject -

See, I didn't YELL or anything of the like - ;)

bigred76
01-08-2006, 09:08 PM
Nice equations but theory is often offset by reality(one of DRAGON's favorite proverbs). You've left out a bunch of variables such as pressure rating, flow property, flow properties of the valve and regulator, flow properties of the propellant tank, weight of the striker, not only spring weight but spring tension since it is adjustable, shall I go on?
You seem to forget: I used a certain FPS as a reference point. Thus, those factors are included because to get that FPS, the marker has to deal with all those issues. :D

This is why you cannot say a certain tank will yield 'X' amount of shots per tank especially with our different LP Spyder setups. Thus another ton of variables from the different modifications and components available on the market. To say that if my Spyder ran at 150psi I'd have better efficiency than if it ran at 300psi is totally incorrect. If you want to dabble in equations, figure out how much total volume of pressure for each shot it takes to push a ball through a barrel at 280fps at 150psi as compared to 300psi not theoretically equating volumes of space within a tank and the marker tubes. It takes less volume to push the ball at 300psi than it does at 150psi. Finding the mean flow per volume per velocity is the key to efficiency -
It seems that you realized here my point of using the velocity reference point. :smirk: With the same marker, with the same set-up, my little equation will hold true. You WILL get better efficiency by using 150psi than 300psi with the same marker.

I know this is speaking of another marker but use the new and old Shockers as an example. They both run at extremely low pressures but are total gas hogs from the box. It takes an aftermarker bolt kit to prudently shave that bad efficiency into a more rational state -
READ BEFORE YOU POST! :p I said that markers with LPRs with different internal volumes will differ with operating pressures. My assumption is that the Shocker has a massive internal compartment for air storage, requiring less PSI becuase it has the same amount of air, even tho it is not as pressurized. I.E.: You can fit 300psi of air in 1", and then put that same exact gas in the same exact quantity at 150psi in a 2" compartment.

Low pressure does not mean less pressure. Seems that some confuse both because it comes to mind when you say it. They are not synonymous in the least. I'd like to hear Otter's imput on this subject -

You're correct there. Less pressure does not equal less pressure becuase the internal volumes differ as I've already said. I PMed Otter my equation a little while back to see if I could possibly claim the idea for that equation because I didn't know if anyone had done it before. Didn't get a response, so IDK what happened. Hopefully he'll get into this thread.

See, I didn't YELL or anything of the like - ;)
Go right ahead and yell at me. :D

DRAGON
01-08-2006, 09:33 PM
Waidaminit.......did you perhaps work for **** Nixon at one portion of your life? As I typing about one list of your theories, you change things while I'm typing. Are you messin wit me? :D

Another thing, so you're comparing your Spyder to Bomber's Pro Master at different pressures? Why did I even bother to start this discussion? You need to use the same marker(we are discussing BP's LP Spyder here are we not? Not his Pro Master) :rolleyes:

Please sir, who's on first, what's on second and I fergit why's I even bothered? -

bigred76
01-08-2006, 09:41 PM
Haha, I said give me a minute LOL. I can't type everything at once, and I had different bits of info needed in different portions of my computer. Plus, at my level of energy, my typing starts to slow down...Sorry, I shouldn't have edit-whored there, I got a lil' carried away...:blush: I'm like Claus at times...I need :help:

I threw the ProMaster in on accident, it was part of another thing I was doing and ended up copying it over as well....The same theories/formulas work for it on Spyders, however.

I warned you we didn't want to spam poor Bomber's thread...LOL! :p

*EM1-Master*
01-08-2006, 09:44 PM
Pardon my frankness, but your equations suck:love:... You're approaching high level math with a 10th grade education... High level Calculus, fluid dynamics, and other things beyond your knowledge level are involved, and you're going at it with simple Algebra... Good try, but no... :p

bigred76
01-08-2006, 09:45 PM
I give...bah....Druid was right, this will start a flame fest. :crazy:

DRAGON
01-08-2006, 10:28 PM
*EM1-Master* basically stated what I was trying to convey to you a few posts back but in a more direct manner lol. You left out all of the variables and thought that a basic approach would tell the story -

It's like saying this car gets better gas milage because the engine is smaller. I'll measure the c.i.d. of the engine and tank with some water and prove it to you. You forgot all about the electronics, weight of the vehicle, tire size, gear ratio, transmission gvw, cfm, ......shall I go on? And most important of all, theory is often offset by reality -

Anyways BP, try those different springs and see how it go at a slightly higher pressure -