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vikingshadow
05-25-2006, 06:46 AM
Ok, in honor of my first full day of summer vacation (let the post whoring begin!!! :rolleyes: ) I'm opening up with this INTERESTING topic I ran into on another forum I've been visiting.

The topic: Wiping - is it cheating, or a foul? Should we, as paintballers, be concerned with honor and integrity and having fun, or should we be interested in winning, getting the girl, the money and being King of the Mountain?

I personally find these two threads eye opening in that so many people think it's ok to cheat by comparing it to other sports - an by how widespread the idea has become. I mean, some of these guys are actually FIGHTING when they say it's ok to wipe, if the situation calls for it (as if it ever could!) Using an example that seems common on these types of threads: A lineman holds someone and gets a penalty. Wiping is a foul and shouldn't be considered cheating...

BUT, let's be more realistic - when you hold in football, the other team doesn't lose a player, leaving the team a man down and thus making your team stronger. No, it just changes the field position, usually not by very much. When you wipe, and subsequently eliminate another player, their team is now at a disadvantage. Not to mention the fact that the youngun's see this and say, "Cool! That's what I'm gonna do!"

Make sure you read both complete threads linked below, and then feel free to give your thoughts. Remember, these are two completely different forums, with people from all over the country registered.

Here's the thread I found. (http://invisionfree.com/forums/StockClassPaintball/index.php?showtopic=14842&st=0)

Here's another one I found with a slightly different point of view. (http://www.pbaz.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20122)

Let the discussion begin!

emf7301
05-25-2006, 08:41 AM
According to the rules, if a paintball breaks on you, then your out. No ifs, ands, or buts. Wiping tries to hide the fact that you got hit and in essence is cheating because you are breaking the rules. That's my .02

marvin-martian
05-25-2006, 09:03 AM
haha, we have the exact same format as pbaz.

vikingshadow
05-25-2006, 01:46 PM
So no one besides emf has anything to say about this? Wow! I thought for sure this would get a rise out of someone...cough**druid**cough.....:p

Or is it that everyone is getting used to the idea of wipers as just a "foul" and not really anything bad???? ;)

bamf-hacker
05-25-2006, 02:03 PM
wiping is cheating... PERIOD!!!

If you wiped a hit off it is because you actually got hit.... Which means you are out.

A foul would be giving a live player paint as you walked off the field...

My .02

HacKeR

Team Ramrod
05-25-2006, 02:10 PM
the point of the game is to mark the other player. If you get marked and wipe it than you have cheated, period. Its the same thing as in a hockey game after someone scores, you take the puck out of the net and tell them it was never in and deny them the point.

There is no middle ground, no place where it is acceptable, if you wipe, you cheat, no foul, straight up cheating and i dont know how anyone can defend otherwise.

thechubbss12
05-25-2006, 02:10 PM
Heh that 2ffu kid wouldnt have a face left if he lit me up like that.... All that would be left would be a bloody mess with my fist prints in it...

Well now that thats out... Cheating is unforunatly part of paintball in the form or Wiping, illegal board settings, layers of clothing..... Well my thoughts on it are the same as Bamf.

I personaly think that we should make the punishment more for cheating... I.E. if the winning team of the torney is caught in any form of cheating instead of just pulling him and a buddy.... Simply take the option of all the prize money away... say like that kid wipped... If this team ends up getting any money Deduct $500 from it. and if they dont win simply charge them a $50 dollar fine....

Money is everything and money makes the worst punishments..

TheRedBarron
05-25-2006, 02:11 PM
I have been around the tourney scene for a LONG time now and one thing I have notice that has changed through the years is this...

when the tourney scene first opened up people would velocity ramp for greater distance and to install more pain, after awhile people started realizing how stupid that was


Then after electros were the norm people started buying "cheater boards" boards that ramped or had full auto settings that could be hidden or disguised. this was killed mostly due to PSP's ramping rule. Allowing ramping at a set speed has killed most of this type of cheating.

Now we have this wiping thing, MANY big tourney ballers feel that wiping is just like a foul as you said. I personally feel that if we allow it to be just a foul and have a sufficient penalty just like in football holding or a face mask ranges from 5 - 15 yards. Have a 2-1 or 3-1 more likely a 2-1 but still don't ridicule the wiper, yes its wrong but so isn't a intentional face mask, that person doesn't get flack from everyone it just puts his team at a disadvantage.

So overall cheating has been an issue with our sport since it started, if we accept it and apply the correct punishment and take it as a foul then our sport will be able to continue. If we start kicking out every player that has ever wiped a hit then our sport will slowly become like curling, completely safe with less then .5% of the population playing it.

Hossy
05-25-2006, 02:11 PM
i think wiping can be practiced...and if they do it there should be a huge penalty if cought....and like vike said

"when you hold in football, the other team doesn't lose a player, leaving the team a man down and thus making your team stronger. No, it just changes the field position, usually not by very much. When you wipe, and subsequently eliminate another player, their team is now at a disadvantage. Not to mention the fact that the youngun's see this and say, "Cool! That's what I'm gonna do!""

well I agree that it changes the whole game...but its just that game, BUT WIPING SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED...IMO if a team gets cought for wiping they should be out of the tourney that there in. it shouldnt be allowed.

I was playing woodsball with a group of 25 kids, for a younger friend of mines birthday party. i honestly was the best one there, and most expirenced, being one of the only ones that have played before. some kids watched PB on ESPN2 and all, and hear the ppl wiping, and they did it. i light up some kid with about 5 balls(woodsball sorry i didnt know if they hit them.) and well he wiped all 5 balls, by the time the ref came. they were bad wipes, one was on the mask and he only got part of it, which the ref called him out, and he had to sit out a game because he wiped

but back on track. i think that the team that wipes should get thrown out of the tourney, because if they cheat its not fair, so i think that it would be good in the name of paintball, so they get more airtime and all, that they have stricker rules

my bottom line: If a kid is watching Paintball on TV, professional paintball, and they see wiping and all they will do it. its like a child who is brought up doing drugs or whatever, they will most likely do drugs.

thats just my 2 cents

Hossy
05-25-2006, 03:06 PM
ok so anyways, im watching the news, and a quote from an enron guy who got charged:

"No matter how rich or powerful u are, you have to play by the rules"

sorry i dont know his name, but i thought it fit right in with this topic

pman15
05-25-2006, 05:38 PM
wiping is for people that wanna win and don't care that there here for having fun,like vike saiid all they want is the girls,money and fame.I play for fun,not for cheating

vikingshadow
05-25-2006, 06:14 PM
Hmmmmm, girls, money and fame with little to no effort involved...

Maybe I have this wrong!

pman15
05-25-2006, 06:21 PM
:yeahthat: {and a lol!:D } but when the pro teams get into tournaments worth 50,000${take espn paintball for example]i guess i don't blame them for cheating,im not surprised that pros would cheat to get 50,000$.but now a days i don't think pros even could wipe even if they tryed.it seems that today these referees are top notch{a little to top notch]

DyNasty9
05-25-2006, 08:05 PM
ok i havent read what everyones said yet but i wana put my .02 out there.
i can honestly say i have never wipped a hit, unless it was smaller then a quarter which is the rule. now in regard to what vike said about the face mask holding, what if that call isnt made because a ref didnt see it?
Now in paintball if a ref sees you wipe its a 1 for 1 or 2 for 1 ect. but what if he doesn't? your still in and you can help your team win, which is your goal. WIPING IN PRACTICE IS STUPID! I hate all the little kids that wipe during practice its pointless it means absolutly nothing.

final thought: if im in a tourny i paid a lot of money for(for instance im playing in the New York Cup in july) if i get shot off the break maybe in the shin or elbow im sliding headfirst and letting a ref pull me out if he sees me get hit, because i know thats how people play now and i dont think i want to lose a tourny because im the only honest one there. but i really dont have the courage to wipe a noticable hit, because i know if i get caught and get a 1 for 1 id feel horrible for my team.
i know somebodys going to totally disagree and say im a cheater and a disgrace to the sport, but cheating has become a part of this game, and its never going to go away no matter how hard we try to stop it.
Cheating is a part of every game.


ok i take back my last statment of it not ever going away, if they made a rule that if your caught cheating, your out of the tourny i think that would decrease the wipping A LOT.

Raygun
05-25-2006, 08:10 PM
Whipping is cheating!!! Period!! Not fair, hate people who do that!! Can't ya be a man and face you got hit and just get, theres gonna be other chances to get revenge!! lol

vikingshadow
05-26-2006, 04:55 AM
Uh, oh! Watch out - here it comes! :devil:

i can honestly say i have never wipped a hit, unless it was smaller then a quarter which is the rule. now in regard to what vike said about the face mask holding, what if that call isnt made because a ref didnt see it?

It's great that you think you haven't wiped a hit. However, I'm not sure that quarter thing is a rule anymore...at least it's not in any of the tournaments I've ever played in. The rule is, if it breaks on you, you're out.

I don't get your point on the "if the call isn't made because a ref didn't see it" thing. In my opinion, you just CAN'T compare a foul in football, or any other sport, to wiping - again, in those sports, the goal isn't to ELIMINATE players, it's to score. In paintball, you wipe a hit and don't leave the field, you are cheating the other team out of points (for hitting you) and then for anyone you eliminate later.

Now in paintball if a ref sees you wipe its a 1 for 1 or 2 for 1 ect. but what if he doesn't? your still in and you can help your team win, which is your goal.

Sure, winning is the goal, but at what cost? Everyone sees you cheat, you and your team get labeled as cheaters, bad feelings start, at a lot of fields actual fist fights start (dare I say with other cheaters?) Where does it end? Besides the obvious lack of real life character, you're perpetuating a vicious cycle - they did it, so I did it, so they did it back, so I did it worse, so they blah blah blah......

final thought: if im in a tourny i paid a lot of money for(for instance im playing in the New York Cup in july) if i get shot off the break maybe in the shin or elbow im sliding headfirst and letting a ref pull me out if he sees me get hit, because i know thats how people play now and i dont think i want to lose a tourny because im the only honest one there. but i really dont have the courage to wipe a noticable hit, because i know if i get caught and get a 1 for 1 id feel horrible for my team.

Then you're in the wrong sport. If you feel horrible because someone got in a lucky shot, and you're going to stay in because it was lucky - yet feel bad if you get caught because it cost your team a 2 for 1, or you're stressed because you lost a tournament for being "the only honest one out there" - then you need to play something that isn't so stressful for you.

ORRRR, just release the stress by WALKING OUT like you're supposed to. Just because THEY do it, doesn't mean YOU should do it - two wrongs don't make it right.

Guess what? That team you just cheated ALSO paid a lot of money to enter the tournament, and they want to win also. Guess who I would rather play, though? Sure, I understand the whole cheating in a tournament thing - heck, I've been in tournaments a long time and have had the urge to cheat, but it's ridiculous to justify it with "money issues". Be honest, you cheat because you don't want to go out or you think you can get that other player out if you just had a little more time...been there done that, it's flashed through my mind as well. But when the poo hit the fan, I walked off the field. Come on, sack up, own it, and get the hell off the field - be a man. Don't be a follower!

I cheated once,and felt so bad for it, I walked off the field. I slid in headfirst to get rid of a hit, because I'd had this exact discussion with other "cheaters" and even the refs had told me to do it. What they don't see won't hurt, was what I was told. However, I felt so guilty and ashamed that I just called myself out. Fortunately, I didn't elimiate anyone in the meantime, and I wasn't caught, so it didn't affect anyone other than my own team. You know what I found out? My team went on to win without me in that game and we won that tournament. Imagine that. They won without me cheating!

So my question is, how is it you have no confidence in your team to handle the game without you? So on top of the cheating issue, you have trust issues! Wow, new twist to the problem!

but i really dont have the courage to wipe a noticable hit, because i know if i get caught and get a 1 for 1 id feel horrible for my team.

The sad thing about this statement is that you don't wipe only because you'd feel horrible for possibly getting caught and costing your team another player. Seriously.

i know somebodys going to totally disagree and say im a cheater and a disgrace to the sport, but cheating has become a part of this game, and its never going to go away no matter how hard we try to stop it.
Cheating is a part of every game.

ok i take back my last statment of it not ever going away, if they made a rule that if your caught cheating, your out of the tourny i think that would decrease the wipping A LOT.

You're right. I totally disagree with you and although I'm not saying your a cheater (YET) I'm worried that you're buying into the "everyone's doing it" hype. Would you do drugs? Come on, everyone's doing it! Would you cheat on your SAT's? Come on, everyone's doing it! If you live in an area that homosexuality is rampant, would you become homosexual? Come on, everyone's doing it!

The sad thing is that every thread like this has a "if they would make the penalties harsher, I wouldn't do it" post...in REAL life, the jails are full of people that wouldn't do it if the penalties were harsher. I know, paintball is a game, but I'm talking the character of a person here. If you cheat at a GAME to get money or prizes, it's stealing - a crime in REAL life.

Sorry for the rant - I just woke up and have a lot of energy!

druid
05-26-2006, 10:34 AM
So no one besides emf has anything to say about this? Wow! I thought for sure this would get a rise out of someone...cough**druid**cough.....:p

Or is it that everyone is getting used to the idea of wipers as just a "foul" and not really anything bad???? ;)

HEH HEH....you thought you'd catch me :p ...

I think it's widely known what my ideas of fair-play are...

I've never wiped, I've called a ref over and if (s)he deems it a 'safe' then they wipe it or tell me to and I'll do it. I've called myself out even when the mark was less than a quarter...based upon how the hit 'felt' (solid hit) + mark = I didn't cover well enough to not be marked.

I don't ramp...even when allowed by the rules. I like unlimited semi alot and that's all my TBoard's have ever seen. Right now my Ion's set to 30bps uncapped semi and the tourney lock is only a dip-switch away.

Hot marker - twice in my lifetime I've run hot...but were never intentional. They were hot summer days and I was using CO2. Now, I figured that when I chrono'd at 260 (field limit of 280), the 20fps was a 'good enough' buffer zone. Apparently not. So I was sent back to tech area to fix the situation...no problem. It's part of the game and a hazard of using CO2.

Wipers on the other team - causes an issue with me because of my own ethics. It puts me into a moral dilema that I have a hard time justifying. I'm totally against intentional bonus balling but when I see a wiper...I light them up and I do them ugly. At 17-19bps, it makes it hard to wipe half that...so I make sure they need a few gallons of water to make it look like they weren't hit. Is it right? No, not in my eyes but what's the alternative? Let them do it and get away with it? I can't allow that either. This is why I play more rec than anything else. It seems that rec players are more honest than tourney ballers and we have the Lasoya types to thank for this.

vwjimmy
05-28-2006, 10:10 PM
Wipers on the other team - causes an issue with me because of my own ethics. It puts me into a moral dilema that I have a hard time justifying. I'm totally against intentional bonus balling but when I see a wiper...I light them up and I do them ugly. At 17-19bps, it makes it hard to wipe half that...so I make sure they need a few gallons of water to make it look like they weren't hit. Is it right? No, not in my eyes but what's the alternative? Let them do it and get away with it? I can't allow that either. This is why I play more rec than anything else. It seems that rec players are more honest than tourney ballers and we have the Lasoya types to thank for this.

I know exactly what you mean......
I don't do the tourney thing anymore but even rec balling I see some wipers...
Makes me want to empty my hopper into them, and sometimes I do hit 'em enough to make sure.....
Man, I hate it when I do that as bad as I hate it when I get bonused....
I'm too old and slow to cheat, I don't even want to ever, and I have to sleep at night!
Wiping is for the weak minded, those who forgot that winning is a reward for solid play, skill and good luck. Besides, what comes around goes around and the luck of the wipers always sucks in the end.....
thats my .02.....
:cool:

timmyshoota
05-29-2006, 08:30 AM
I wipe. So I guess I'm a cheater. I play sometimes with guys from a D1 NPPL team. They've taught us plenty of techniques for wiping. I don't wipe an obvious hit, because thats asking for a penalty. I've learned tricks for getting away with it. Does it make it right? No, but sometimes winning is the important thing. If I could play everygame and not have to worry about someone playing on and costing us a win, or someone wiping against us, I'd probably play clean too. You get pretty agrivated when you pay a lot of money to get into a tourney and then lose important games because of cheating. Last year at world cup I wiped a hit but noticed the ref looking at me, so I called myself out before he could pull a penalty. That game we lost because someone on the other team played on the entire game with obvious hits. Then after the game the refs messed it up and didn't pull enough people, so they still had one guy on the field, and gave them the points for pull and hang. Instead of a tie, we lost by a ~50 points. We were seeded like 50th out of 137 teams going into the second day. The points we lost that match by would of put us down near the cutoff and given us a good chance at moving on. We ended up getting rolled the second day, but had we played good we would of probably ended up just outside the cut for the semis, all because of that one game. Cheating breeds cheating, and its breeding like rabbits. There's no way to really stop it now. Only way to really stop it is making it an automatic forfeit of the game and the other team gets max points. That should slow it down some.

QAZ123
05-29-2006, 09:25 AM
Just some quick notes as I don't want to write a paragraph....

It happen's but should never happen in recball of any sort. It's going to keep happening in every division and at every level of play whether is Pro or rookie division. Alway's has and alway's will.

I noticed Vike posted a scp link and I'll tell ya not everybody that weild's a pump is that honest. My xppl teammate is also head coach/captain/play or NTK (Semi pro NPPL) and they played against Blowfish. They beat them but nonetheless saw enough pump player's get rid of hit's to throw out the whole honesty idea about them. It just show's though that when money is on the line......

I've never wiped a hit but I have played on twice and both times I was in the wrong and they were both during pump tournament's and I set it right afterward's.

The first instance was when I took one guy out and another guy took his place. We were shooting at each other. One shot hit my love handle but I took one more shot and nailed him. It was obvious I was hit first and I let the ref know and everything worked out.

Second instance was yesterday in the first game of the day. We were up player's and a guy came up to bunker me. He took a shot and I was looking right at him and never even saw a ball come out of his barrel and I never even felt a hit and it was as close as you can get on the field. I looked down at my chest for a splatter and saw nothing so I turned and shot him in the back then jumped up and proceeded to move to a new bunker until a ref saw I was shot right in my crotch. I guess with the empire man pad and three hankerchief's under that I didn't feel it. The ref cleaned the other guy off but it screwed the game up cause my player's thought he was out and turned there back's to him. They threw the game out due to another controversy not pertaining to me and we had to play them again.

In defense of that everybody was using the same paint and it was literally bouncing off everything even at the chrono it was bouncing off the carpeting 10 feet back of the chrono station. I even had a bounce off my profiler lense on the right side with that crap that day.

I still don't know too much about the nppl and psp (top tier) tourney scene but in my xppl pump league my one teammate is semi pro nppl playing with NTK and my other teammate for the day was a player from Brimstone Smoke (not sure what they call themselves now that they play that wpl league) and both are classy individual's in playing pump tournament's but ya never know when real money is on the line...

It should never happen in recball though...

JB.

vikingshadow
05-29-2006, 10:02 AM
The link was from SCP, but I wasn't meaning to say that all pumpers are straight up ballers all the time - it's just where I found the link. I think the problem has become more universal and the more new players come in, the more cheaters we'll see, and not just wiping. With almost 10 million people playing a couple years ago, I seriously think that it is "breeding like rabbits" as Timmyshoota said before.

My goal for this thread was to get a little controversial and see what different (or same) opinions it would generate. While it's not growing fast, I think it's a decent thread.

Wonder what would happen if I threw in ramping vs non ramping!
*ducks the barrage coming!*

marvin-martian
05-29-2006, 10:46 AM
theres been enough ramping threads

QAZ123
05-29-2006, 01:49 PM
The link was from SCP, but I wasn't meaning to say that all pumpers are straight up ballers all the time

I figured you wasn't I just wanted anybody that read through the scp post's not too think all people who play pump are that honest. Nothing against any of them as I've met quite a few but some of there opinion's are one sided as they haven't experienced the tourney scene so you just have to take there opinion as that just an opinion.

Lol there are nppl/wpl player's on scp and it's funny cause they alway's steer clear of those kind of post's!:rolleyes:

JB.

druid
05-29-2006, 09:08 PM
I wipe. So I guess I'm a cheater.
In many peoples eyes (certainly mine) you are. Your own admission proves that you have no ethics or at the very least...don't care.
I play sometimes with guys from a D1 NPPL team. They've taught us plenty of techniques for wiping. I don't wipe an obvious hit, because thats asking for a penalty.
So...using that mentality, it's ok to speed, drive drunk, do illegal narcotics, rape, pillage and maim...so-long as you don't get caught or when it's obvious?
I've learned tricks for getting away with it. Does it make it right? No, but sometimes winning is the important thing.
Spoken like a true, corporate robot. Winning is a result of using skill, poise, precision, audacity, strength and wit to defeat the opponent. If all you care about is winning, it's no longer a game it's a chore. Let's not forget about what we're talking about here...it's the sponsors. They could give two ****s about you, they only care about selling their products and making money. A losing team is a tax write-off to them which doesn't get them as much as profitable sales. Your 'win-at-all-costs' mentality is driven by fear and greed. Fear of losing the sponsor, because of their greed.
If I could play everygame and not have to worry about someone playing on and costing us a win, or someone wiping against us, I'd probably play clean too. You get pretty agrivated when you pay a lot of money to get into a tourney and then lose important games because of cheating.
Which you, by your admission, help to perpetuate.
Last year at world cup I wiped a hit but noticed the ref looking at me, so I called myself out before he could pull a penalty.
aww...got caught...you get no sympathies from me...sorry.
That game we lost because someone on the other team played on the entire game with obvious hits.
which should have been brought to the ultimate ref's attention by an outed player RIGHT AWAY...not at the end of the game
Then after the game the refs messed it up and didn't pull enough people, so they still had one guy on the field, and gave them the points for pull and hang. Instead of a tie, we lost by a ~50 points. We were seeded like 50th out of 137 teams going into the second day. The points we lost that match by would of put us down near the cutoff and given us a good chance at moving on. We ended up getting rolled the second day, but had we played good we would of probably ended up just outside the cut for the semis, all because of that one game. Cheating breeds cheating, and its breeding like rabbits.
Only because you, and people like you, help to perpetuate it. Congrats...you have become the thing you hate most.
There's no way to really stop it now. Only way to really stop it is making it an automatic forfeit of the game and the other team gets max points. That should slow it down some.

I completely agree with the last sentiment about the forfeit. It should be implemented immediately and unconditionally. Lasoya would never play again....

It really bugs me that this mentality of "well...they do it, so I will too" - is as pervasive as cancer

timmyshoota
05-30-2006, 03:26 PM
I completely agree with the last sentiment about the forfeit. It should be implemented immediately and unconditionally. Lasoya would never play again....

It really bugs me that this mentality of "well...they do it, so I will too" - is as pervasive as cancer
Lemme guess...rec baller? Thanks. I don't put money into this sport just to lose it to cheating. If thats whats required to win then thats what I'm gonna do. If all I was, was a recballer it'd be a totally different story. If I have to cheat to beat cheaters, than thats what I do.

druid
05-30-2006, 03:40 PM
Lemme guess...rec baller? Thanks. I don't put money into this sport just to lose it to cheating. If thats whats required to win then thats what I'm gonna do. If all I was, was a recballer it'd be a totally different story. If I have to cheat to beat cheaters, than thats what I do.

Lemme guess...doesn't matter? If you play in an illegal, immoral or unethical manner for the sole purpose of winning, pick another activity like Tiddley-Winks because no one in the world likes a cheater. And I suppose you are one, like many, who want to see paintball in the Olympics. Great representation of the US...thanks for wanting to make us look like a bunch of cheese-heads...
You guys do it and the noobs see it. They do it and cycle just continues. Everyone was so upset when Pete Rose got bounced because he was an 'American Icon'...big frikkin whoop....he did illegal drugs, gambled against his own team and then lied about it. He deserved everything he got and should have been punished more.

Sac
05-30-2006, 04:03 PM
wiping, its cheating, thats why its punished harder than a typical "foul"

playing on, bonus balling, blind shooting, etc those are fouls and there punished by a 1 for 1 usually, wiping is a 3 for 1 minimum, sometimes worse.

now do i ever wipe, yeah i do, i admit it. do i wipe in rec play, hell no thats lame, just walk off you'll be playing next round anyway... what are you trying to prove?

Santy
05-30-2006, 05:22 PM
Druid compared cheatign and getting away with it to rape, pillaging and maiming and getting away with it. Now how can you compare these?? If you cheat and get caught, its a penalty, not life in prison.

Its gonna happen, isa it bad for the sport, sure. Is it as extreme as some of you make it out to be, NO. Yeah it happens especially among tourney ballers, but its a lot easier to say that "I WON'T CHEAT, EVER" When refs aren't screwing calls and you don't need to make the semis. Cause trust me, it doesn;t feel good leaving a tourney at 1:00 instead of 4:00.

DyNasty9
05-30-2006, 07:36 PM
Lemme guess...rec baller? Thanks. I don't put money into this sport just to lose it to cheating. If thats whats required to win then thats what I'm gonna do. If all I was, was a recballer it'd be a totally different story. If I have to cheat to beat cheaters, than thats what I do.
personally, what timmyshoota said in his other long post was what i was trying to say i just couldnt get it out, and was lazy and didnt feel like typing it. i agree with what he said.
anyway after i had typed my first post i went to the polls and started a poll about who here actually plays in tournys link (http://www.spyder.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=3543). because as timmyshoota stated its not rec ball, its really different. so as of right now give or take a few people, 9 people play tourny ball and 17 rec. what im getting at here is that "most" of you dont know how it feels to spend 300$ to get into a tourny plus paint, and then lose because the other team played on or wiped or cheated in anyway. it sucks to know you got shot out by someone who just wiped your shot off his hopper. and ya someones going to say, o well now your becomeing exactly what you hate, well i dont know about you guys but i like to win and losing sucks.

timmyshoota
05-30-2006, 08:02 PM
Thank you. I 100% wish I never needed to cheat, but this isn't Disney World, this is the real world. I'd love to play every game fair and win that way, but you can't these days. Wiping isn't even the worst thing. Its playing on that gets you. Its 2 on 1, you have 2 guys. You run up and try to 1 for 1 with the last guy, so that your team will win. Well, you shoot that guy and he shoots you. He then runs down the field before a ref pulls him and shoots out your last guy. Now instead of you winning, its a tie, because once a player is shot out he can't be put back in. I had a guy try this in the tourney I reffed. Luckily he got shot out after running from me. Thats the reason why I bonus ball people. 5-6 shots is nothing for me to give you if I bunker you. If I shoot you from across the field, expect to get a few more when you stand up. I usually don't do a blatant hand wipe. Its usually something along the lines of rubbing my gun or the hopper into the bunker to rub it off, or my arm against the bunker. If I'm hit in the legs, I'll move to another bunker and dive into it to rub it off. Things like that. I do those when they are needed. I don't automatically go to wipe if I get hit, its situational. If I'm in the semis and the team I'm playing just cheated to win the last game against us. I'll turn around and do it if necessary in the next game. Sometimes I'll do the leg hit stuff without even thinking. Usually refs won't pull you for playing on for something like that. A lot of the time I don't even know if the paint has broken or not, its just reflex. If it broke the ref can run up to me and find it. Its his responsibility to pull a player he's seen get hit. Other things like if I'm running and get hit I'll keep running and shooting and then call myself out after the 2nd or 3rd shot. Just incase inbetween the 1st and 2nd shot to hit me I can possibly get the guy who shot me also. If I atleast take out one person I've done my job. If I go out by myself I've hurt my team. This is an uphill battle though, its 100% impossible to make a recballer understand the tourney mindset. You have to play it and fork out the money to understand.

timbertiger20
05-30-2006, 08:22 PM
Well.......a cheater is a cheater......they do it everywhere.......so the easiest thing is to punish them........My favorite rule in sports is a rule out of Nascar........Actions deemed detrimental to the sport and it's image. To make it real simple I will sit a player out a couple times if I catch them cheating when I'm reffing.......or to make it more intresting......if it's woodsball I'll wipe the hit and re-tape on the other team........so his buddy's can light him up! On the professional level where it's all about the money.......I would fine 10% of the winner's fees before 1/4 finals, 25% in quater finals and 50% in finals, and pull the player from the series for an intentional wipe. So if you wipe to win in the finals.......you just lost!
In scenario's I just make sure and point that guy out to my team and the ref's and proceed to lay it on thick.......two weeks ago one particular group of people took a min 4 balls a piece before I yelled at them each to check for paint......they all called out right after I yelled at them!

druid
05-30-2006, 09:29 PM
Druid compared cheatign and getting away with it to rape, pillaging and maiming and getting away with it. Now how can you compare these?? If you cheat and get caught, its a penalty, not life in prison.

Come on...think a little bit. Use the brain God gave you. Of course it's not the same thing as rape et al...but the analogy is the same..."it's ok so long as you don't get caught"....bull-****. That teaches everyone nothing but "do what you can to get away with _______." It's an inmate's/prisoner's mentality and that really pisses me off....

Its gonna happen, isa it bad for the sport, sure. Is it as extreme as some of you make it out to be, NO. Yes it is, alot of you are just in denial Yeah it happens especially among tourney ballers, but its a lot easier to say that "I WON'T CHEAT, EVER" When refs aren't screwing calls and you don't need to make the semis. Cause trust me, it doesn;t feel good leaving a tourney at 1:00 instead of 4:00.

Well, there should be a system where the reffs are held responsible for their calls....I don't know how...but they should be. I've seen reffs make calls based on bias/favoritism/spite....a missed call is a missed call but a bad call is unacceptable and should be dealt with harshly...but like Maury, Montel and Jerry Springer has proven...everyone thrives on drama.

timbertiger20
05-30-2006, 10:33 PM
Tell me........how many of you would watch the world series of poker if cheating was prevalent?

vikingshadow
05-30-2006, 11:05 PM
because as timmyshoota stated its not rec ball, its really different. so as of right now give or take a few people, 9 people play tourny ball and 17 rec. what im getting at here is that "most" of you dont know how it feels to spend 300$ to get into a tourny plus paint, and then lose because the other team played on or wiped or cheated in anyway. it sucks to know you got shot out by someone who just wiped your shot off his hopper. and ya someones going to say, o well now your becomeing exactly what you hate, well i dont know about you guys but i like to win and losing sucks.

Dang, I hate typing 14 paragraphs, then for the sake of not being controversial, change my mind.

Let me say this though. I totally disagree with most of what you said here. "Most" of us do know what it's like to spend a lot of cash on a tournament and go home early. I myself spent over 650.00 for myself for ONE tournament alone last year (and that doesn't include paying for my family to go...) - and we finished 50 points from the semi's...I dare say many other people could say the same. It's just that we've seen the same dang poll 14 bazillion times, and we didn't feel like voting again for it. There are more than 26 active people on the board for the length of a poll...

I also have to say that I will NEVER agree with the money issue. EVERYONE knows that paintball is expensive. EVERYONE knows (or if you don't you need to figure it out in a hurry!) that tournaments are expensive and the chance of getting anything back in return in a decent tournament is pretty slim, because there are anywhere from 10-150 teams looking at doing the same thing as you. So the justification for cheating by saying "I spent 300.00 on this so I'll do whatever it takes to get a prize" is pure crap. You and everyone else in that tournament paid that amount. What makes you anymore deserving than them? Of the 750 people in the tournament, I'd bet even money that most of them WON'T cheat, yet you would say it's ok for you to get them BEFORE they do it to you, even if you know most of them won't do it? That's a characteristic of this game that, sadly, has become pervasive, but really should disappear if we want to grow. That would be trust and honesty, by the way!

However, there is a part I do agree with. It sucks big time to shoot someone and have them wipe their hopper. Been there, done that in many tournaments. Did I get even by wiping? Nope! Did I wipe other hits so I could win? Nope! Do I feel good about being honest and knowing I have a rep for being honest and a straight up good person/baller. Damn skippy, I do!

Winning is great, been there a few times - losing sucks, been there as well. However, having a great reputation and having people come up to you and say that you were good and that our team were straight up ballers and honest ones at that, and ask if they can play for us or practice with us (I still get emails and pm's every day from teams all over the place asking these things) more than makes up for those that feel they "have" to cheat before they get cheated.

vikingshadow
05-30-2006, 11:37 PM
Ok, it's pretty clear that most everyone thinks it's cheating, but not everyone thinks it's necessarily a bad thing....I won't drag my thoughts any further into this certain thought.

What do you guys think the penalty should be for cheating - say wiping since this is the topic here?

Should it be something drastic? Obviously, pulling a 2 for 1 or even a 3 for one isn't enough of a penalty because it still happens. What about a suspension foe a certain number of games for that particular person - ALONG with the stipulation that your team MUST play a man down for the length of that penalty? You know, if your team is going to be pissed at you, the chances of it happening is a little smaller.

What about refs who don't do anything about the wiping that's evident. Let's face it, there are enough video cameras at most events that it's going to be seen most of the time!

The thing I notice though, is that when a player thinks another is wiping, the balls aren't even coming close to that other player. Then the "complaining" player throws a fit to the ref....what about strict policies regarding communication with refs? I know at a lot of tournaments I played in, the captain was the ONLY person allowed to talk to the refs about anything above a paint check or a time check...

pman15
05-31-2006, 03:57 AM
Ok, it's pretty clear that most everyone thinks it's cheating, but not everyone thinks it's necessarily a bad thing....I won't drag my thoughts any further into this certain thought.

What do you guys think the penalty should be for cheating - say wiping since this is the topic here?

Should it be something drastic? Obviously, pulling a 2 for 1 or even a 3 for one isn't enough of a penalty because it still happens. What about a suspension foe a certain number of games for that particular person - ALONG with the stipulation that your team MUST play a man down for the length of that penalty? You know, if your team is going to be pissed at you, the chances of it happening is a little smaller.

What about refs who don't do anything about the wiping that's evident. Let's face it, there are enough video cameras at most events that it's going to be seen most of the time!

The thing I notice though, is that when a player thinks another is wiping, the balls aren't even coming close to that other player. Then the "complaining" player throws a fit to the ref....what about strict policies regarding communication with refs? I know at a lot of tournaments I played in, the captain was the ONLY person allowed to talk to the refs about anything above a paint check or a time check...

i say a 3 for 1 and if the team continous to argue with the reffs and there is about two or three players left they should just pull the rest of the team out for continguangly argueing with the reff{yes i no bad spelling}

timmyshoota
05-31-2006, 03:43 PM
I say pull the whole team. Its the only way to stop cheating I feel.

Druid, cheating isn't nearly as bad as you think it is. There aren't nearly the people cheating that you think. People like you, not necessarily you but people who have the same feelings as you, make it seem like such a worse problem.

druid
05-31-2006, 11:23 PM
I say pull the whole team. Its the only way to stop cheating I feel.

Druid, cheating isn't nearly as bad as you think it is. There aren't nearly the people cheating that you think. People like you, not necessarily you but people who have the same feelings as you, make it seem like such a worse problem.

Agreed with pulling the team.

timmy...I know that...but it's bad enough as it is...it's only going to get worse because everyone sees what does get done and they continue the practice. It's bad no matter how you try to justify it.

Victa_Balla
06-01-2006, 03:28 AM
we as players should have the dignity to play by the rules and win. If you can't play by the established rules and win. Then you are worth nothing. You have proved nothing to anyone. "Maybe i can slip this wipe in and keep going" is the mindset we have put ourselves into. Everyone has thought of it at least once "It's for the good of the team, with one/two etc man down we'll lose", you have to look past that. Most chicks go for the honost guy, and thats my stand point. Cheat the game and you cheat yourself. WIPING IS CHEATING

my .02

and another .05 tip

druid
06-01-2006, 01:07 PM
As many of you know, I'm an avid hunter and have been since I was 12. I'm now 36 and hunting is as much a lifestyle to me as paintball is to many of you.
PA has what's called "Fair Chase" laws that govern out hunting practices and define our ethics. Baiting game is illegal (hunting over food/salts/mineral blocks). Tying live cubs to trees (to attract the mature bear in bear season) is illegal. Harvesting an animal taking refuge in water is illegal. If you harvest an animal, you must tag it immediately if you have additional tags to harvest more of the same species (i.e. doe season)...anything contrary is illegal. Firearms must be over a certain caliber with certain actions and archery equipment of a minimum standard. Harvesting game animals out of season and without the proper licenses (poaching) is illegal...and there are many more regulations, too many to list here. The motto that the PA Stage Game Commission uses to define 'sport' is...

Sportsmen
Policing
Our
Ranks
Together

...and it has been a major sticking point in my life. It serves as a reminder that we are all together in this activity. It means that we, as a group, have a moral and ethical responsibility to do the right thing. Are there violators of the law? Absolutely. When they get caught, the punishments are severe...from hefty fines (up to 10's of thousands of $$), confiscation of hunting gear - up to and including, vehicles and properties. Revocation of hunting privileges in the state can range from 1 year to a lifetime ban...and then there's the possibility of jail time (doesn't really happen that much).

I know that many of you think my ethics are arcane in nature, perhaps misguided by a sense of 'duty.' They have served me well in the past and I see no reason to alter them now.

In My Opinion...The reason so many people break the law/rules is because they have no honor...no (or very little) ethic...no valor...no common decency or respect for the other competitor. Steroids in 'organized sports'...drugs and alcohol in others...and a mentality to 'win at all costs'...are some of the most detrimental aspects to their sports...simply for the glory of a trophy, record or the petting of their ego.

To win in a competition (much like hunting), you need to be smarter than the opponent. You need tactics that defeat them out of superiority - not by dumb luck and certainly not by cheating. You need stamina and a thorough understanding of your prey. Otherwise, you will be defeated and left on the side-lines every time. If you are inferior because of ignorance (the true meaning of the word, not it's common usage today), then it's your responsibility to come up with a different game plan. If you lack the skills to defeat your opponent and are unwilling to design a new plan of attack...you will remain 2nd best all of your life and no amount of cheating - trophy in hand or not - will ever change that. I don't know about you guys...but looking at a trophy and knowing I won it by 'being the better wiper' doesn't sit well with me at all. It means I'm a fraud, actually...it means I'm a more skilled fraud than the other team...but still a fraud...and a liar to myself, my team and the people charged with assigning the spoils.

albertjackson99
06-05-2006, 05:18 AM
I believe the truth can be found in the words alone....

(From Dictionary.com)

Foul: Violating accepted standards or rules

Cheat: To violate rules deliberately, as in a game

Now, these aren't the only defininitions of each word, but they are the most applicable.

I would venture to say that the key difference between these two words is "deliberate". So tell me, which one applies to most wiping situations???

I guess the verdict is in....

durrell
06-05-2006, 07:29 AM
Cheat definitely applies..

WhatThaSmurf
06-05-2006, 10:24 AM
well that does settle it once and for all, wiping is definitely cheating