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View Full Version : I give up, I need some valve help!


Prospekt
05-14-2006, 01:53 PM
Ok, I have an E-99 Avant and I've been upgrading it for a while. I have everything needed to go low pressure. ( Stabilizer, drilled VA, delrin bolt, spring kit, barrel, air system, rocket valve, polished internals)


I've just purchased a Maddman Rocket valve and it hasn't changed my gun's performance at all, possibly making it worse. No matter what I do, I can't get the pressure lower than 400 without mad burping. I'm thinking I don't have the valve set up properly. My question is: can anyone give me a CLEAR way to set this valve up (I haven't found straight directions anywhere)

I've tried two methods:

1: Start with the lowest possible cocking pressure and then continue to screw in the SRP until you have the velocity you want (lowest pressure was 410 psi)

2: Lower the SRP to match the length of the stock valve and THEN find lowest pressure from there. (this made it even worse, burping at 420ish)

I've tried the medium and soft main springs as well. I'm just frustrated that I've put so much time and money into this project as others have, and I'm not getting any results.

If anyone can help me out, I'd greatly appreciate it; until then, I'll be playing with the cocker.

Hob Hayward
05-14-2006, 01:57 PM
Did you use the directions on the madman website?

Prospekt
05-14-2006, 02:04 PM
I've tried, but they're extremely unclear and ambiguous. They support both methods I tried. Anyone know of a way that worked for them?

ooglieboogliebob
05-14-2006, 04:23 PM
drill out your VA more ... or get a CIP assault block .. your VA's not high flowing enough ... and there's only one way you can put in the valve so your fine on that part ...

Make sure there's nothing obstructing the airflow ... clean it well ect.

Get rid of the derlin bolt .. .unless it has o-rings on it ... sunbear, aka lightning ... hell stock bolt would bet better ...

light main, hard valve ... try this stuff first .. i'll go on after you finish

Prospekt
05-14-2006, 05:40 PM
Tried the stock bolt..no difference. (Lol tried to pull the venturi out and bent the needlenose pliers in the act)
Everything is very clean - I fully disassemble and clean after every time I play.

Is it safe to drill the VA more than 3/16''? I've got it the same width as otter reccomends. I'm pretty disappointed with the whole thing and I'd rather not have to buy any more parts for it.

ooglieboogliebob
05-14-2006, 05:49 PM
Look here for more valve info (http://spyder.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=2282)

You can get it pretty high flowing this way ...

druid
05-14-2006, 08:29 PM
it's the delrin bolt...ditch it in favor of (any) one with O-rings on it and dish mod your striker

DRAGON
05-14-2006, 08:33 PM
Better instructions - (http://www.sundragonpps.com/paintball_tun_spyder_roc_vlv.html)

Prospekt
05-16-2006, 12:36 PM
Cool, I'll give these a shot and let you know how it goes.

The whole dishing the striker thing won't change much though, sure it'll let me crank the valve on max settings, but I tried them on max and there were no results.

druid
05-16-2006, 12:51 PM
I just re-read your post. The SRP is to set the valve dwell...and set the spring tension. It should be open as much as the stock valve's was, perhaps a little more to let more air in (so the stem would be a little longer and the SRP unscrewed a bit). Compressing the spring stack will make it harder to open farther.
Dishing the front of the striker allows it to 'cup' the air and assist in forcing it back.
Did you plug the bottom tube's exhaust hole that bleeds the air to the frame?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/druidsdecendant/Paintball/My%20mods%20and%20ideas/ExhaustholeinbottomofValvetube.jpg

Post a clear set of pics of your VA drilling so I can see it. Perhaps it needs to be opened more but I need to see. You might have to do this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/druidsdecendant/Paintball/My%20mods%20and%20ideas/VerticalAdapter2.jpg

Prospekt
05-16-2006, 01:04 PM
WOW, judging by the look of that massive hole in yours it looks like I've got quite some drilling to do.

I'll post some pics once I get the camera charged up :P

Thanks for the help guys, this is a friendly forum for sure.

So here's the rundown on what I have to do

-Cup the striker (I'll have to figure this one out..)
-Fix the stock bolt
-Drill VA even more
- Seal the exhaust hole

Just wondering though druid, if I'm widening the holes coming from the regulator end, won't I have to widen the holes going into the valve as well? The airflow is being limited by the 3/16'' hole there.

Prospekt
05-16-2006, 02:32 PM
I Have some pics here..



http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/Prospekt89/80dc3592.jpg
Valve chamber hole, 3/16" I think it's pretty much as big as it'll go before it hits the threading, unless I dremel a larger hole and avoid the threading.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/Prospekt89/f20b11de.jpg
Main Hole, 3/16" - Could use some widening, yet really it's the size of the hole in in the first pic which limits airflow. Modifying one hole wouldn't do much.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/Prospekt89/2b5cc7b5.jpg
Valve Setup (Note that the line isn't exactly on the right angle)

shunut
05-16-2006, 04:46 PM
I had about the same setup as you did, almost exactly with the exception of regs, I had a BL Torpedo. I got rid of my stock VA and got a high flow VA and it solved all my problems. I agree with bob and say its the VA. Work on that and then if that doesn't work try something else. I had a BL/32* VA with LPC and I got it off of ebay for like $20 I think, and that was shipped.


Here is a link to the VA I bought off of eBay. VA w/LPC (http://cgi.ebay.com/Spyder-Air-Chamber-Block-4-Paintball-BLK_W0QQitemZ7242001511QQcategoryZ36285QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem)

DRAGON
05-16-2006, 05:35 PM
When my E-99 was still LP, I had the exact same setup as you and it ran at 300psi @ 285fps. I would never even consider drilling out the whole VA as Druid showed. IMO that's way too much flow and just asking for efficiency probs not to mention a big time leak from the LPC since the hole runs into the LPC threads -

If you compared the ASA hole in yours(pic above) to mine, imagine 2 more holes the same size as the one you have there, one on each side of your existing drilled hole. It is essentially a slot not a round hole -

The Rocket valve was left all the way opened after I tested different positions and springs. A light 32* main spring is used -

Funny thing is, I've transferred all components and mods over to my Imagine and it runs at the same pressure. Every time I shoot it I think to myself, "Man, you have this Spyder thing to an art". It just runs so smooth, is quiet and efficient. I have a bunch of different markers but choose to shoot my Imagine every time I go to the field -

As far as your burping prob goes, I think you may have cut the valve shaft too short and you're just not getting enough pressure to the striker. Get a Rocket valve repair kit and try it again -

Hob Hayward
05-16-2006, 07:11 PM
Darn kingman and their tolerancing, basically the same thing has happened to me, I can't get my spyder to go lower, even with a completely drilled out floor plate in the VA I'm hoping that a CIP assualt block or a trinity VA will fix the problem. One note is if you read otter's page, for his budget LP spyder, he couldn't get it low enough until he put on an aftermarket high flow VA.

ooglieboogliebob
05-16-2006, 08:04 PM
When my E-99 was still LP, I had the exact same setup as you and it ran at 300psi @ 285fps. I would never even consider drilling out the whole VA as Druid showed. IMO that's way too much flow and just asking for efficiency probs not to mention a big time leak from the LPC since the hole runs into the LPC threads -


Well .. druid has a different VA ... most likely ...
For me i just drilled out half of it and saw how much space i had left till the o-ring on my LPC ... left about .. 1/16"till the o-ring and wala ... didn't really have any leaking problems ...

Not sure about too much flow ... never really tested that yet .. i just used it as a fiddling gun.





Can also drill the LPC -> valve hole out as far as possible until it gets to the point where it would hit the screw, but maybe 1/8" away from the left side for safety reasons.. do that on the other side 1/8" to be away from the right side .. then drill out that part with measurements till it's 1/8" away from the top of the screw ... and higher flowing !!! :) ... (havn't tried this yet, but druid has, so we really havta wait for a reply on him for the efficiency thing ...

EstebanFR
05-17-2006, 01:18 AM
Hello everybody! first, sorry for my english, i am french.

Just a question: if u Seal the exhaust hole (u mean close, right?), how the air that blowback the hammer will goes out after the recock of the hammer?
The air will goes out by passing thru the pin valve?

Thank all!

regards.

druid
05-17-2006, 02:25 AM
Just wondering though druid, if I'm widening the holes coming from the regulator end, won't I have to widen the holes going into the valve as well? The airflow is being limited by the 3/16'' hole there.
yes you would but be careful not to breech the screw hole that mounts the VA to the body
When my E-99 was still LP, I had the exact same setup as you and it ran at 300psi @ 285fps. I would never even consider drilling out the whole VA as Druid showed. IMO that's way too much flow and just asking for efficiency probs not to mention a big time leak from the LPC since the hole runs into the LPC threads
I used the same thing on my Esprit without any efficiency issues at all. Ask Bomberpilot07...he has it now. And it doesn't leak as you think it does. The miracles of teflon tape :D are a beautiful thing

if you Seal the exhaust hole (u mean close, right?), how the air that blowback the hammer will goes out after the recock of the hammer? The air will goes out by passing thru the pin valve?

The pressure is lowered so there's no need for a vent. Keeping the vent open only hinders the recocking pressure from reaching full potential (at low pressures) and any excess air is stored in the LPC and regulator

EstebanFR
05-17-2006, 03:31 AM
ok, thank u druid. but one more question pliz:

in most lp setup, i can see a hard spring for the valve and a soft spring for the stricker. but there is something i dont understand:

for me with a hard spring, the valve will not stay open for a long time, and it will be hard to open it. if she dont stay open for a long time, the air flow will not be big.

with a soft spring, the stricker will have less "power" than with a hard spring to open the valve.

so i dont understand how it can be the best setup for a lot of people.

someone can explain me?

thechubbss12
05-17-2006, 04:32 AM
Holy druid..... Thats an open VA.... about as high flowing as it gets...

druid
05-17-2006, 09:42 AM
ok, thank u druid. but one more question pliz:

in most lp setup, i can see a hard spring for the valve and a soft spring for the stricker. but there is something i dont understand:

for me with a hard spring, the valve will not stay open for a long time, and it will be hard to open it. if she dont stay open for a long time, the air flow will not be big.
right. Change to a soft spring
with a soft spring, the stricker will have less "power" than with a hard spring to open the valve.
right. change to a medium spring or the hard spring. Turn your velocity adjuster to the mid-point...half in, half out. Lock it (if you can)
so i dont understand how it can be the best setup for a lot of people.
what works for me may not work for you, chubbz, vike or anyone else on the planet. The key is to test your set up over a chronograph and determine on 'your own'...what's the best set up. You need to assess what YOUR marker can do with the mods you do to it.
someone can explain me?




Holy druid..... Thats an open VA.... about as high flowing as it gets...
LOL...it didn't start out that way. I originally just enlarging the holes one drill bit at a time but had recocking issues until I got to the point of "well, I may as well as remove it all" and now it works. I can't explain it any better than that. Yeah, I think I got the highest flowing VA on the East Coast...lol...
I suggest to anyone doing this mod, start small. Test. Go a little bigger. test. Keep going until it works.

Prospekt
05-17-2006, 02:13 PM
Well it's a good thing I bought a rebuild kit with the valve, I'm going to save it until I try the whole VA thing.

One of the first links you gave me was the Sundragon site and it said that it's a good starting point to have the valve about the same length as the stock one. So I'll keep the current setup for now until I change things.


Edit:

For future reference, which VAs are best for this application, at a decent price?


Thanks

druid
05-17-2006, 04:07 PM
BLong makes a high flow one and CIP Assault Block is high flow too

EstebanFR
05-18-2006, 01:49 AM
OK, thank u Druid! :)