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Spinal
04-17-2006, 07:16 AM
Hey guys i just have a thought, and i hope this is the right section in the forums. But how come kingman doesn't make a "highend" gun? A few ideas just popped into my head and well here they are. I don't want any flaming and in no way do i dislike Kingman i love their stuff. Oh and by "you" i mean kingman, i got kinda lazy lol.

First of all Kingman is a very well known company, very well known. If you guys use everything you have have, Spyders could easily outshoot an Angel ( believe it or not..... it's actually true). A spyder can operate at lower than 100 psi easily causing it to whisper paint. A Spyder runs at a shocking stock max cps of 50. With upgrades such as lighter internals, a Spyder can achieve speeds in excess of 65-70 cps.

If Kingman came up with a nice grip frame, and had Damon of the T-board or WAS make a board the equivalent of an Intimidator board instead of the crappy stock 13bps capped board....wow..... nice feel and nice speed. If Kingman put larger ASA holes in the stock front block and created an ultra-high flow valve.... such as tornado and the rocket valve....... we would have Spyders rockin' out psi levels in the low 100s if not just above 80. Of course then Kingman would actually have to make a nice regulator instead of their not so good ones that come stock on select models. And as for the bolt, the stock aluminum alloy one is actually really good if certain area's of it were drilled out, milled off, not only would it be super light, but super kickass. Same goes for the striker. Plus some small things such as a 50g trigger switch and a roller bearing trigger (preferably a blade) would be nice. Wow.... just think of that gun, its almost unreal how good it would be........

All in all... A spyder running at 80psi is so deadly silent that the shooter almost can't hear it. At 60 bps.... well..... ouchies. And everything has already been made for them. They could put a nice price tag of $500 on it and it would never have to be upgraded..... easily blow away an Ion ( or anything else for that matter)...... and be the dream gun of the 21st century paintballer.

For those jerk Angel or Intimidator owners out there who love to flame Spyder owners.... well let's see your gun do 60 bps. Not gonna happen. And everyone would be buying Spyder's, I'm quite sure on this one because if the price was kept reasonable, it would outsell angels, intimidators, dm5's, egos, everything, because of how high they are priced.

In the end I dont expect a new highend gun to come out and stuff, this is just a suggestion..If kingman released a highend gun it would totally revolutionize the world of paintball we live in today. And I (along with a lot of other people) would know that kingman is a reliable company that build quality products.

Discuss...

WhatThaSmurf
04-17-2006, 07:24 AM
First off, 60 bps is impossible. Do you really think someone could move their fingers fast enough even with ramping? But everything else sounds nice, plus it would put all those product on the market too, allowing for Spyder users who don't have that particular gun to slap all those ups on theirs.

marvin-martian
04-17-2006, 07:34 AM
this topic has been beaten with a stick
http://www.spyder.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=1909

Hob Hayward
04-17-2006, 08:24 AM
LoL, they could do it for pretty cheap, the key things would be to make a better valve say NDZ style, a better VA cip style. Then get a palmer stab lookin a bit fancier, and for the price of an electra you could have an LP spyder pilot (pilot board has 21 bps cap).

crimsonguard
04-17-2006, 08:38 AM
Check out this thread at PBnation : http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1484659 Rumors thats kingman is already in the production stage.

~shocktheman~
04-17-2006, 09:01 AM
Everyones been talking about how kingman "might" be making a high end marker, but I still doubt it'll get anywhere. Not to be Mr. Negative, I'd be happy to see Kingman make higher end guns, but its gonna be hard to break the reputation of "low" end guns and "entry level" guns that they have now.

And the whole 60cps thing? Thats the maximum times a "MECHANICAL" spyder can "CYCLE" in a second if you were able to shoot that fast. But of course your not gonna see anyone shooting a mech spyder over like 8bps for the most part. And even with a Tboarded eframe and 50g switch noone can shoot that fast anyways. So saying that a timmy owner will never see 60cps? Of course not, but you "definately" won't either. So unless you're a some Cyborg terminator that can shoot a mech spyder at 60bps this is a moot point.

Hob Hayward
04-17-2006, 09:02 AM
Well cps is very diff from bps, and you'd be hard pressed to get a loader fast enough.

druid
04-17-2006, 09:23 AM
Everyones been talking about how kingman "might" be making a high end marker, but I still doubt it'll get anywhere. Not to be Mr. Negative, I'd be happy to see Kingman make higher end guns, but its gonna be hard to break the reputation of "low" end guns and "entry level" guns that they have now.

...I'd be happy to see Kingman make something different PERIOD...angle feeds on brand new markers was the dumbest idea they had...body's the same, functin's the same, crappy tolerences are the same...the only real 'innovations' they've created in 10 years were trigger frames, "window dressings" on the MR series...an ACS bolt (that rarely works) and a change in detent styles. Sure they modded bodies and anno...big whoop. They are apparently happy in their complacency and mediocre enhancements, designed to fool the noob with marketing strategy (rocking frame)...instead of using leadership...Even Tippman tried something new with their Propane Flame Thrower...a failure...but still an attempt for change.....

...I challenge them to prove me wrong. Send me an MR series marker for eval.

vikingshadow
04-17-2006, 10:45 AM
Since this is a discussion, may as well add my two cents. For those of you who slapped your heads, groaned and quit reading, don't worry! I'll be brief - for me!

Hey guys i just have a thought, and i hope this is the right section in the forums. But how come kingman doesn't make a "highend" gun? A few ideas just popped into my head and well here they are. I don't want any flaming and in no way do i dislike Kingman i love their stuff. Oh and by "you" i mean kingman, i got kinda lazy lol.

Before I start, I love Spyders, so don't think I'm cutting them down in any way.

Ok, Kingman has the market in "low end" guns. Why would they want to move on? They pretty much own all the noobs out there that start in paintball. Also, given the "reputation" Kingman has, right or wrong, a high end marker would probably fail just because the prevailing attitude is, it's a "Spyder."

First of all Kingman is a very well known company, very well known. If you guys use everything you have have, Spyders could easily outshoot an Angel ( believe it or not..... it's actually true).

You are joking, right? Have you EVER shot an Angel?

Since you don't know me, let me tell you right now, I have a couple of Spyders, one that I converted to very low pressure. I've had a couple Spyder clones as well, all maxed in upgrades. I've had T1's (which were the first "mid level" guns before the Ions, Promasters, and Wraths, in my opinion.) I also own an Angel 04 Speed and a maxed out Shocker. I've shot all kinds of guns from low ends, to mids - Ions, Promasters, T1's, to high ends - Shockers, Angels, Protos, DM's, Vikings, etc....

Trust me, there is NO comparison between an up'd blowback gun and a gun like an Angel or any other gun. I have NEVER met a spyder that can outshoot my Angel. I have one of the MOST upgraded spyders there is - it's only missing a bolt and the t board - and the feel is not even close. I'm not dissing Spyders, but with blowback markers, you have blowback problems, especially at high rates of fire with low pressure modifications. Spyders just weren't designed to be better. Period.

A spyder can operate at lower than 100 psi easily causing it to whisper paint. A Spyder runs at a shocking stock max cps of 50. With upgrades such as lighter internals, a Spyder can achieve speeds in excess of 65-70 cps.

A spyder is not designed to run very well at pressures under 300 psi. I have my Sonix running about about 280 psi getting about 280 fps over the chrono. I get close to 2000 shots off a 20 oz Co2 tank (or did, when I used it.) I can get it to recock at under 100 psi, but it's only going like 50 fps. I've worked and worked and worked, have the highest flowing parts available, and yet I can't efficiently take it under 260 psi without problems lie burping, machine gunning, decocking, etc. Where did you find someone running a spyder at a consistant 280 fps under 100 psi? I mean a spyder that wasn't turned into a Spimmy or had The One kit installed, in effect changing it from a Spyder. I'd have to call shens on that without some proof.

Many guns can CYCLE faster than that. Even Angels and Shockers can come close. But it's not cycles that make the gun. With that many cycles per second, you get "runaway" guns, barrel lift and no accuracy whatsoever. NO loader can keep up except a Qloader, I think, so that many cycles is a NON issue. Trust me, once you hit 50 CPS, your getting a lot of "half-cycles." Even with lighter internals, the bolt and striker are not cycling all the way forward and all the way back, which would blow your shooting ability to heck.

If Kingman came up with a nice grip frame, and had Damon of the T-board or WAS make a board the equivalent of an Intimidator board instead of the crappy stock 13bps capped board....wow..... nice feel and nice speed. If Kingman put larger ASA holes in the stock front block and created an ultra-high flow valve.... such as tornado and the rocket valve....... we would have Spyders rockin' out psi levels in the low 100s if not just above 80. Of course then Kingman would actually have to make a nice regulator instead of their not so good ones that come stock on select models. And as for the bolt, the stock aluminum alloy one is actually really good if certain area's of it were drilled out, milled off, not only would it be super light, but super kickass. Same goes for the striker. Plus some small things such as a 50g trigger switch and a roller bearing trigger (preferably a blade) would be nice. Wow.... just think of that gun, its almost unreal how good it would be........

I have to totally agree with you on these points. However, the more that Kingman does to the gun, the higher the price goes, and the fewer new players buy them.

All in all... A spyder running at 80psi is so deadly silent that the shooter almost can't hear it. At 60 bps.... well..... ouchies. And everything has already been made for them. They could put a nice price tag of $500 on it and it would never have to be upgraded..... easily blow away an Ion ( or anything else for that matter)...... and be the dream gun of the 21st century paintballer.

Again, show me a blowback spyder running at 80 psi shooting a decent FPS, then I'll be tempted to listen closer. NO gun, ESPECIALLY a spyder can shoot 60 bps, and even if it could, NO loader can keep up, so it wouldn't matter. You'd have to totally redesign the sear/solenoid concept because it wouldn't be able to keep up. AND you'd be talking fully auto at most. No tournament allows full auto. It's too dangerous. No field allows it for the same reason. Ramping is capped at 15 bps in most leagues, so there's the rub with the 60 bps idea again.

For those jerk Angel or Intimidator owners out there who love to flame Spyder owners.... well let's see your gun do 60 bps. Not gonna happen. And everyone would be buying Spyder's, I'm quite sure on this one because if the price was kept reasonable, it would outsell angels, intimidators, dm5's, egos, everything, because of how high they are priced.

Jerk Angel and Intimidator owners? I don't think I'm a jerk just because I know my Angel can outperform and be more consistant than my Spyder. While I love the Spyder, it has a place in paintball and it does well in that place. I've already addressed the 60 bps thing. But I don't think Kingman will ever outsell those other brands. They have made their niche in the higher level market, same as Kingman has made it's niche in the lower level one.

Ever wonder why people flame Ion owners so much? It's because of the attitude they have about how their guns are better than others, when in reality, they aren't. Sure, they are great guns for the price and perform wonderfully, but they aren't a Shocker. Same goes for Spyders. People flame Spyder owners because they come across talking about how their guns own other guns. Remember, a lot of those higher end gun owners previously owned Spyders and they know what they're talking about. Spyders are great guns for the price you pay, and perform decently, better with upgrades. But they aren't Angels or Intimidators.

You also have to remember, it's the player, not the gun. Give Dynasty spyders and my team Angels or whatever high end guns you want, they'd still walk over us.

In the end I dont expect a new highend gun to come out and stuff, this is just a suggestion..If kingman released a highend gun it would totally revolutionize the world of paintball we live in today. And I (along with a lot of other people) would know that kingman is a reliable company that build quality products.

Discuss...

While it appears that you have done some thinking, I don't think that Kingman will make waves in the high end market and only because it's too little too late. I think they could have, but with the advent of all these other guns, they might only make a ripple.

Would I like to see Kingman come out with a high end gun? Sure! I think it'd be great. Do I expect it? Nope, not for a very long time.

That's my .22 cents on the issue...

marvin-martian
04-17-2006, 11:14 AM
good job being brief there vike...normally i enjoy reading you stuff, but not right now.

vikingshadow
04-17-2006, 12:22 PM
Sorry, but I have issues....:( :( :( :D :p

WhatThaSmurf
04-17-2006, 12:25 PM
I love how far he goes into stuff he doesn't agree with.

marvin-martian
04-17-2006, 12:37 PM
its ok vike...i sucked it up and read it.

all i have to say is "i love you."

~shocktheman~
04-17-2006, 12:50 PM
Well cps is very diff from bps, and you'd be hard pressed to get a loader fast enough.
Ya thats pretty much what I was trying to say. Even if the gun itself can shoot technically 60 times per second, its limited by
1). The electronics if you've got an eframe
and
2). Your finger speed.

Again I'd love to see Kingman make a higher quality gun rather than just(as druid stated) changing things like the anno and such.
But quoting Vike "its too little too late". Guns like your timmies, shockers, and ego's dominate the high end gun industry right now. And your not gonna see guys all of a sudden ditching their ego's for a Spyder, merely because its a "SPYDER". Kingman's made a name for themselves in the entry level market and if they wanna make a change its gonna take a very long time and a steady line of superior products to get rid of the cliche "its just a spyder" mentality.

I also agree with Vikes cry of shens about the "easily under 100psi" thing. A blowback spyder isn't gonna run at high enough fps even if it can recock a few times under 100psi. Plus spyders aren't really mean't to run that low, thats why you have things like Otter's home mods to aid you in the lp process. And also HAVE you ever shot an angel or a timmy? One is a blowback and the others are pneumatic and such. They are totally incomparable to shoot, its like the beauty and the beast if I may say so. Spyders are nice in their price range, but they will never compete with one of these.

To summarize all that, I think it would be a great decision to make something to compete at the level of an Ion, Wrath or anything in that range, but anything targeted at the high end market would be a waste of time(and time is $$$ my friend) in my opinion.
Well now that I've voiced my opinion on the subject.....

**steps away from podium**

ps......I love you too vike *offers e-hug*

vikingshadow
04-17-2006, 12:55 PM
I love how far he goes into stuff he doesn't agree with.

It's not that I go so far into disagreeing with things. It's that I have a lot of words to go with my reasonings and feel like if I explain my thought processes, you guys will understand how I got there. I guess it's my punishment for being a teacher - I talk too much!

Sorry - I'll try to stop.

WhatThaSmurf
04-17-2006, 01:02 PM
I didn't say there was anything wrong with it.

vikingshadow
04-17-2006, 01:14 PM
Ah, I misunderstood. Gotcha!

thechubbss12
04-17-2006, 02:36 PM
Well vike without teachers we would all be stupid =(....

I would love to see people ditching thier egos for the Spyder.... but the odds of that happeing are slim to none... unless Kingman rips off someones marker idea (ego, timmy, DM) and sells it for half or less then half of the price..... then everyone would buy kingman.

Hob Hayward
04-17-2006, 02:59 PM
Well, they COULD make a high end spyder for ~250$.
Lets see, take an imagine-110$ Add a palmer stabilizer-85$ add a cip assault block-25$ in place of a reg one, add an NDZ valve say 15$ more. Add a spring kit, and you have a good LP spyder. Costs less than the current "high end" spyders.

WhatThaSmurf
04-17-2006, 03:02 PM
there is definitely more to it than that

crimsonguard
04-17-2006, 03:10 PM
Look at how much technology(in general) has advanced in just the past couple of years years. Who knows what the near furture holds....

vikingshadow
04-17-2006, 03:12 PM
Don't forget, you'll have to add the current manufacturer markup of about 20-40 percent. That would make it around the 300-400 dollar mark, about the Promaster range.

But, I still contend that it'd only be a mid level marker, and not a high end marker. Also, they'd probably get a different regulator than the Palmer's (because of patent problems, they'd have to get in bed with Palmer's for that...) so they would probably design one of their own. Add another 50-100 for trial and error on that one. Same for the valve and assault block. Patent problems (see Smart Parts battle for supremecy!) So add another 200.00 or so for R&D on these. See what's happening here? No one's gonna want to pay 600-800 for a blowback...

marvin-martian
04-17-2006, 03:55 PM
and keep in mind that the primal opened up as a 500 dollar marker. kingman charges an arm and a leg for anything more than a standard blowback.

ShadowX
04-17-2006, 04:07 PM
Everyones been talking about how kingman "might" be making a high end marker, but I still doubt it'll get anywhere. Not to be Mr. Negative, I'd be happy to see Kingman make higher end guns, but its gonna be hard to break the reputation of "low" end guns and "entry level" guns that they have now.

And the whole 60cps thing? Thats the maximum times a "MECHANICAL" spyder can "CYCLE" in a second if you were able to shoot that fast. But of course your not gonna see anyone shooting a mech spyder over like 8bps for the most part. And even with a Tboarded eframe and 50g switch noone can shoot that fast anyways. So saying that a timmy owner will never see 60cps? Of course not, but you "definately" won't either. So unless you're a some Cyborg terminator that can shoot a mech spyder at 60bps this is a moot point.


Yes my man, but, keep in mind, the faster your marker can cycle, the EASIER it will be able to cycle at 15 BPS. I used 15 BPS because it is a common ramping and semi-auto speed.

So a marker that caps out mechanically at 25 BPS, opposed to a marker that mechanically caps out at 45 BPS, the marker/it's internals that caps out at 45 BPS will find it easier to operate at 15 BPS, therefore being more efficent and consistent.

Don't know if that really works that way, but I was lead to believe so...

TacTownKilla
04-17-2006, 05:47 PM
Would you buy a kingman gun for a high end price? Millions would say no,maybe a few would say yes. thats why kingman wont make a high end

/thread

druid
04-17-2006, 08:28 PM
Would you buy a kingman gun for a high end price? Millions would say no,maybe a few would say yes. thats why kingman wont make a high end

/thread

Millions? Hardly. People haven't been heard because they haven't spoken up...since we can't guess what their answer would be, we cannot assume their answer. And no one is asking Kingman to devote their entire enterprise to the creation of a high-end marker...just one model. They can continue to flood the low-end marker with their current products but give the serious competitor a seriously competing marker. What would this take?.....Hrm.....lessee......

* VA department...change drill bits and bore the holes bigger...a few bux.

* Valve department...change the drill bits to increase flow. Redesign the cups seal and pin...thinner pin=less material=cheaper to produce.

* Electronics - a few minutes to reprogram the board to shoot faster/uncap it. TBoard did it for $59/unit...it can't be that expensive.

* Redesigned frame - ooooh...tell the CNC guys to 'program this' into it.

* Springs are likely 'out-sourced' anyway. Gee how about ordering a different one with less tension...hrm...weaker spring, cheaper maybe?

* Reg - So...they forge an alliance with someone for a CO2 friendly reg maker...big deal. Torps cost us 65 bux so they probably cost around $40 to produce. Kingman buys a crap-load at $50/unit and charges $70 for it...big deal. Since most of us used multiple Torps in our lifetime, we'd likely welcome the reg at that price...

Kingman's doing what the US Steel industry did...to their own demise. They are refusing to re-tool...denial that times change and sales are cyclical to the consumer. Sure...the consumer is a 14 year-old getting into the sport but most of the time, their adult parents have to buy the equipment...so you have to cater to them too...

and since I am a parent...KINGMAN MUST LISTEN TO ME!!! WE WANT A HIGH-END MARKER...JUST ONE!!!

thechubbss12
04-18-2006, 03:34 AM
Well why should kingman even pay to buy the stuff when they could simply take the other company ideas and apply them for much cheaper.... By makeing thier own products instead of buying some one elses..

Open up the valve, Polish the internals, start using delerin bolt with out venturis, open up the VA and increase the size of the LPC. This would come at a much less cost to kingman, becasue delerin is cheaper then Aluminum (im pretty sure), also it would increase the labor time but not signifigintly to charge kingman very much.

So why dont they do it? I dont know maybe they like watching us work for our LP spyders lol.

colonel_moo
04-18-2006, 06:49 AM
Yes my man, but, keep in mind, the faster your marker can cycle, the EASIER it will be able to cycle at 15 BPS. I used 15 BPS because it is a common ramping and semi-auto speed.

So a marker that caps out mechanically at 25 BPS, opposed to a marker that mechanically caps out at 45 BPS, the marker/it's internals that caps out at 45 BPS will find it easier to operate at 15 BPS, therefore being more efficent and consistent.

Don't know if that really works that way, but I was lead to believe so...

i dont see your reasoning there. any matrix, shocker, or spool valve gun mechanically caps out at around 27bps. its not that it CANT cycle faster, its the fact that spool valve becomes very unstable/inconsistent at higher speeds. does that make the gun shoot bad at normal speeds? no.

big_daddy_d
04-18-2006, 12:58 PM
VS line coming out in Sept/October time frame?

druid
04-18-2006, 04:05 PM
VS meaning "Very Similar?"

big_daddy_d
04-18-2006, 04:24 PM
LMAO true true

Elfmaze
04-18-2006, 07:59 PM
um correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the primal pretty much there best attempt at a high end spyder? looks like a nice marker too

druid
04-18-2006, 09:11 PM
true...but even toddlers fall when they first lear to walk...

Hob Hayward
04-19-2006, 07:58 PM
Hmm yes. Kingman either needs to push completely into new territory and spend a LONG time mastering the design before releasing somthing, so when they do release somthing it has a reason to buy it. They need inovation. Or else, they won't move in any direction but simply remain the same, perhaps keep lowering the cost of basic blowbacks.

Prospekt
05-12-2006, 05:32 PM
VikingShadow....thank you for saying what we were all thinging.

vikingshadow
05-12-2006, 06:07 PM
LOL - have to search the thread to see what I actually said in this post...

Slammed0
05-12-2006, 07:30 PM
So everybody seems to downplay blowbacks. I thought that they actually had some positives to them? :shrug:

Hob Hayward
05-12-2006, 07:51 PM
Well, they're dirt cheap, and pretty darn good.

Slammed0
05-12-2006, 08:03 PM
I sometimes just 2nd guess myself cause I am torn on the issue. Half of people talk great about Spyders and then it seems the other half make me question if they are worth putting the time/money into upgrading them.

I am new to this sport. I haven't shot alot of different guns, but the Spyder seems like a pretty cool gun. And I think they are a good looking gun too if that matters any. :lol:

druid
05-12-2006, 09:07 PM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with Spyders or blow-backs in general...for the occasional rec player...the child that's too young/immature to comprehend the complexities of say...a Borg, DM, ICD, Timmy or Hell...even an Autococker....or even the lazy punk that refuses to take care of his equipment properly. They are simple to operate, cheap to maintain and cheap to replace. I think you are misunderstanding the reasons we desire a nicer marker...
A lot of us **cough-dragon,vike,otter,me and more** have been playing for more than 10 years...some over 15. We remember that the 'upgrade' to a Nelspot was a Brass Eagle **shudders** and celebrated the advent of constant air systems...now that they are regarded as 'timeless relics', they are worthy of resurrection...
...but some of us have moved out of the woods (if we even started there) and got into speedball. When it comes to that, we sit and ponder what makes/breaks a game. One answer is simple; speed. Now define it...speed of what? everything...reloads, our old butts running up the field, crawling, sliding, and guess what...markers. Blow backs require more time to lock-up, Flow issues and the physics used in the entire process. We now look around the field and see the plethora of better markers and want to remain loyal to Kingman...but it's apparent the don't want us to be...

Slammed0
05-13-2006, 11:22 AM
Ya I can see your point. I don't play in tournaments or speed ball. I just play with a bunch of friends where ever. However, I do want my gun to be fast and reliable while shooting fast. Don't want it to break down every time I want to throw alot of balls somebodys way. Not to mention they all carry Tippmans and think their guns (well a few of them) are the sh*t compared to Spyders.

druid
05-13-2006, 11:59 AM
tippmans are a decent marker...for the money. They are just slow (or as fast as a modded spyder mech) or you have to RT/E-grip it for speed...but they are still a work-horse regardless of what we think of them. I have an old M98 that just beasts in the woods. The thing about a tippman is, no one's realy worried about scratching up the finish like on a spyder.

oldnewb
05-19-2006, 04:07 PM
Druid, I think that's part of the reason Kingman released the MR1 and MR2. They're really trying to sell the durable finish idea in their ads. If Kingman is going to go for more market share, they pretty much have to fight over Tippman's turf... one visit to the nearest woodsball field tells me that there are just as many Tippmans as Spyders in the hands of the non-tourney player.

Problem is, while I was looking into getting a marker, people seemed to be convinced that Tippmans were indestructable, reliable, almost as upgradeable (if not more so) than a Spyder, and that they just looked cooler when you started getting into all the cosmetic upgrades one could look at for something like the A5 (milsim anyone?). I still went out and got a MR1 due to the price, the look (entirely subjective though), and the fact that most fields around here had Tippmans as their rental guns (I didn't want to be lumped in with all the rental walk-ons).