PDA

View Full Version : So Tim and I were debating...


druid
03-25-2006, 04:09 PM
...I made the suggestion that I install this adjustable type (not necessarily THIS one...one that threads into an asa....)TANK REGULATOR (http://www.airsoldier.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mvc+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AOS&Product_Code=CF-200&Category_Code=REGULATORS) onto the the 114/45 I got for my Ion. Then adjust the main flow down to around 350/400 psi and then the reg breaks that down to the 165 input psi into the marker.

The debate is this...I maintain that the general output is 850 psi...it goes into the reg that retards it to the 165 psi that the marker uses. That leaves 685 psi lost between the tank reg and the vertical reg. Wouldn't it be better or more efficient to lower that to about double what the marker uses instead of 4 times the amount?
Tim says no (and wasn't nice about it)

what are your opinions?

bigred76
03-25-2006, 04:11 PM
Bah, it doesn't lose it, it's only held back by the regulator.....The only plus of using a Maxxy is if you get a gas-thru grip and use the Maxxy as your main regulator because of it's consistency.

And yes, I was being nice. :D

druid
03-25-2006, 05:10 PM
13 views and only one response (from the guy debating me, no less :dodgy: )?!?!?!?

*EM1-Master*
03-25-2006, 07:01 PM
Tim's right... There's no loss of air...

ooglieboogliebob
03-26-2006, 08:47 AM
heh .. yeah .. thats what i thought ... it goes back into the tank ...

vikingshadow
03-26-2006, 09:59 AM
I agree, the tank doesn't lose air. I have a thought but I'm having a hard time getting out - I know, I know....since when does that happen! I'll get back with ya when I can make better sense of it in my own mind...

druid
03-26-2006, 12:02 PM
let me try to rephrase ^^^....

My thought is that my Ion runs at 165 psi...so why have the bottle reg run at 850? Theorhettically, if I reduced the psi at the bottle reg to half that...say 425 or so...it's less pressure on the macro and everything between the bottle and reg...and since less air is being released from the tank, less air is apt to be wasted/lost due to the QEV/bleed systems on the marker. I'm also thinking that since the pressure to my CP inline will be less, the reg has to do half the work (since it's holding back half the air) and should be more reliable/consistant at the chrono, as well as overall air usage. Thoughts?

bomberpilot07
03-26-2006, 06:23 PM
i have to agree with your idea.. it would make sense but im not sure how much of a difference it would make.

bigred76
03-26-2006, 08:48 PM
As long as your tank had enough flow through it to sustain rates of fire, it would only allow you to have less wear on your regulator internals. Not a very big deal, and deffinately not worth the $150-200 for a tank with an adjustable regulator.

*EM1-Master*
03-26-2006, 09:24 PM
You're confused with the role of a QEV... QEV's allow the ram to vent air closer to the source, rather than piping back to the solenoid... They deal with air that's already in the gun... As far as bleed systems go... WTF? Haha there aren't really any bleed systems outside of SP regs that autobleed when you lower the pressure you you don't have to fire to get the lower pressure... 1) Generally higher pressure input is going to equate to higher flow on the secondary regulator... There are a few notable exceptions like the Evolve Pi reg, which simply sucks at high pressures, but blows everything away at low. It's an oddball... If you care to take a look at how regulators actually work, you'll see that regulators don't really do any work persay... But yeah... It's a closed system until the air is released by firing processes. I don't know if I'd say it to your face 'cause you're such a big guy, but you're wrong :)


EDIT: And I just realized that I made a #1), but never did anything further... DEAL WITH IT! :D

bigred76
03-26-2006, 09:34 PM
LOL. Nice post Evan. Right along my lines of thinking, I just couldn't express it. And I'll say it to his face for you. I mean, he's an inch shorter than me so I'm right about the same size. ;)

bigred76
03-26-2006, 09:43 PM
Yeesh Paul, you need to read and listen before you flame, too. The QEV vents excess pressure, yes. But when your inline regulator lets in a set 165psi (I don't care what it actually is, just using that as an example), it will still do that even if you get your big, lower output tank in there and let 165psi through the inline regulator. Same excess as before, just not as much work for the inline regulator to process it.

EDIT: Eh? Where'd his post go? :confused: Oh well...

*EM1-Master*
03-26-2006, 10:37 PM
I was more referring to the fact that his biceps are the size of my thigh, rather than height ;)

druid
03-27-2006, 12:04 AM
Yeesh Paul, you need to read and listen before you flame, too. The QEV vents excess pressure, yes. But when your inline regulator lets in a set 165psi (I don't care what it actually is, just using that as an example), it will still do that even if you get your big, lower output tank in there and let 165psi through the inline regulator. Same excess as before, just not as much work for the inline regulator to process it.

EDIT: Eh? Where'd his post go? :confused: Oh well...

eh?...^^^???...w/e....

...k...well, I'm not and idiot (and don't appreciate being portrayed that way)and I know what the qev does, when it does it and how it's accomplished....it's not the point and I think you guys are missing it completely...

* stock bottle reg's output is 850psi
* CP inline's set at 165 input to the marker. Turn on air supply.
* Right now there is 165 psi IN the Ion, in the noid, ready to be fired.
* Right now there is an additional 165 psi in the reg.
* The reg is now holding back 685 psi from the bottle reg...actually, 850 psi (my bad math)


* If the CP's only going to store 165 psi at a time, it's a waste to have 850 psi between the bottle and the CP. It makes the CP do more work, holding back the 850 psi.

* I drop the tank output to 200 psi (nice round figure).
* There is 165 psi in the firing chamber and in the CP at all times.
* That means that there's only 200 psi being stored between the tank reg and the CP.
* Every time the marker's fired, there will be 165 in the firing chamber, 165 in the CP and 200 psi between the CP and the tank reg.

* QEV at this point is really irrelevent because it only vents what the marker DOESN'T use to propel the paintball/recock the marker and what's being back-tracked through the noid.

* The CP has to do less work...it only has to hold back the 200 psi, not the 850. This should correlate to less friction, less chance for reg failure and still have enough to recharge the reg with gas to spare.

* If the tank output is better metered at 200 psi, that's less air for everything to manage...it's kept inside the bottle until released at 200 psi, not 850...then the CP should be more effective in consistancy because it's not working as hard.

Does that make any better sense to you?

bamf-hacker
03-27-2006, 03:44 AM
I agree with you Druid...

If there is less output pressure from the tank then the reg needs to do less to keep it at 165psi. However the benefit would be minimal, at least that is what i would think. We need someone with expendable income to test it out for us.

Buy 2 new Ions and 2 tanks
setup one
Ion with fixed high pressure output tank
setup two
Ion with adjustable output tank

Shoot 10000 (5 cases) through both.

take the reg off both guns, strip them down and compare :)

But to reiterate, I do agree with Druid on the lower pressure.

HacKeR


P.S. Awesome topic!!

druid
03-27-2006, 08:24 AM
thanks hacker...nice to know one person understands what I'm saying...LOL...although I probably didn't explain my thoughts effectively, early in the post...for that, I apologize...

Ares
03-27-2006, 05:22 PM
i would increase the tank pressure to 250 at least so there is very little chance of shootdown. the biggest flow restriction is the tank regulator so havin a higher pressure would probably help