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QAZ123
03-24-2006, 08:18 AM
Alright so I've been watching a lot of paintball tournament clip's today and some just really tick me off. I'll never get it.

In one clip two guy's in the opposite team were in the snake one proceed's to bunker the other and take's a shot to the side of his goggles. He does shoot out the other guy and is trying fiercely to distract the ref pulling the other guy when the ref notices the hit on his goggles. The ref start's pulling him and the guy flip's out asking the ref what he think's he's doing. Now why would he do that knowing he can't see out of the right side of his goggle's. Is the will to win that important?

Another note at an ending of a game a guy has an extremely small patch of paint on his pod pack. No shell just a dab of paint and it honestly looked old. The ref's called it clean but the other team went nut's over it saying he should be out. The reffed called it clean and yeah sometimes thing's need to be disputed but it was obvious that it wasn't a hit and was rather old but the team was stopping at nothing to get him out just to get the point.

I just don't get it and never will.

Is it that important to cheat and sway the ref's and fight call's to win?
Should there be more penalties toward the aggression toward's ref's?

Discuss.

JB.

marvin-martian
03-24-2006, 08:23 AM
i say the refs normally know what theyre doing, and players should be penalyzed somehow for fighting with him. however, there should be a system where officials can change a refs call if it was obviously a bad call.

paintballer5646
03-24-2006, 08:24 AM
Pros teams will stop at nothing to win a match. They get in the reffs face all the time and don't stop. The penalties would help a little but not very much. They are still gunna do it wheather they get penatalized or not. Whining complaing and fight are now a part of tournament paintball. It's sad to say but it was bound to happen once the prizes got better and better.

druid
03-24-2006, 09:25 AM
next, they're going to inject steroids directly into paintballs...

QAZ123
03-24-2006, 07:47 PM
And it continues.....
An Important Message from the PSP

Several incidents at the 2006 PSP Texas Open have put a black spot on the sport of paintball. The conduct of teams and players may have reached an all-time low in and around this event.



Based on the number of incidents and the damage caused, both financially and to the reputation of paintball tournaments in general, I have decided to take unprecedented action in hopes of deterring players and teams from making the same mistakes in the future. These intolerable incidents affect the outcome of tournaments as well as the finances of the PSP and ultimately the finances of all teams, vendors, and sponsors involved in the tournament. They also affect the reputation of the sport of paintball and the ability of the PSP and other tournament organizers to find and secure desirable venues.

I feel it is time to hold people accountable for their immature, selfish, and irresponsible actions.

Over the past 5 months, PSP had been engaged in ongoing talks with the Marriott Corporation about future involvement with tournament paintball. The talk had progressed slowly, but steadily. Significant efforts on both sides were destroyed by the actions of teams staying in Marriott hotels in the Austin area during our Texas event.

The day after our staff returned from the event, we were contacted by Marriott and advised that they were not only uninterested in any additional talks, but that they were also letting their hotels in the area of our future events know not to book rooms for paintball teams or players.

This loss of a possible huge outside sponsor and hotel partner was brought about by the selfish acts of several teams who stayed at various Marriott hotels during the event. I have a list of names of people who booked the rooms that were damaged. I have cross referenced these names with the ID system. Until the teams provide the names of those specific individuals who caused the damage, every player on the roster of these teams will be suspended from PSP events.

Members of Team Demolition, Choppapb.com, Anarchy, Infinity, and Montage will be suspended for various lengths of time ranging from 1 tournament to a lifetime ban from PSP events. These suspensions stem from various degrees of damage done to the rooms and facilities of a Marriott hotel in which they were guests. Some of the people on these teams are responsible for the breaking off of talks between PSP and the Marriott Corporation regarding future rate deals, sponsorship, and additional involvement between the two companies.

Team Clutch won the Division 3 Xball tournament. They did so with an illegal roster. This was not simply an oversight, but was a deliberate act of manipulating the ID system, and submitting misleading information in order to have members of the team’s classification dropped. Part of this problem stems from the staff believing the stories
told to them and consequently dropping players’ classifications. The other part of this problem was the deliberate and intentional misrepresentation of identity in order to have a team compete below its rightful level. At no point in the future will any player’s classification be changed regardless of circumstances. There is no need for any player to contact anyone in PSP with a request for classification change from this point on. It will not happen.

While I am certain that not all members of the team had prior knowledge of the scheme, I am left with no reasonable choice but to hold all accountable to some degree. The team has been stripped of all points from the Texas event. Several members of the team will be suspended from PSP events for 3 events. Others will be suspended for 1 year. Two individuals will be suspended for life. Adjustments will be made in terms of payout of prizes and distribution of tournament seed points toward year-end standings for the other teams in their division.

On Sunday, Todd Martinez decided to take a PSP-rented golf cart for a joy ride through the awards ceremony. He crashed the golf cart into the guide wires anchoring one of the tripod poles, which hold the net up on the NXL field. The tripod pole was bent and is no longer usable. The golf cart was damaged and PSP has been billed for the repairs. He will be suspended from play for 1 year. He must reimburse PSP for the damages to the golf cart before he will be allowed on the property of any future PSP event.

Here is the list of suspensions handed out to players/teams from the Texas event.

Billy York – probation
Trent Wilson – probation
Grover Srader – probation
Michael Fitzpatrick – probation
Jesse Babb – 1 year suspension
Tanner Russell – Lifetime ban from PSP events
Daniel Orren – 1 year suspension
Adam/Donald/DJ Thomsen – Lifetime ban from PSP events
Todd Martinez – 1 year suspension and reimbursement of costs for damage

The following is the list of players whose teams caused considerable damage and disruption to one of the hotels. PSP has no way of determining specifically which of the individuals on these teams who rented the rooms is ultimately responsible for the unacceptable actions. We are aware of the particular rooms that had damage, as well as the acts of outright stupidity that occurred. Thus, we are holding all members of the teams on which the players who rented the rooms are rostered accountable for the actions of their teammates.

At this point in time, the following players are suspended indefinitely. As more specific information becomes available, there may be changes made in regard to the duration of suspensions for individual players.

Team Demolition
CJ Botsalas
Travis Arango
Chad Bustere
Ryan Currie
Ramzi El-Yousef
Graydon Gesner
Dana Klibanoff
John Ossian
Daniel Riney
Arroldo Silva
Alex Spence
Erik Taylor

Choppapb.com
Josh Harper
James Harwood
Corey Jones
Andrew Macaluso
Aaron McCorkle
Robert Mcleod
Corey Neal
Zack Piper
Myles Vann
Richie Wade
Travis Walsh
Daniel Watson
Duane Watson

Anarchy
Adam Hagar
Mason Kane
Devin Peithmann
Cody Rich
Dan Riha

Infinity
Christopher Bobell
Robert Hamski
Pete Montero
Nick Sandalena
Robert Signor
Domencia Steele

I hope this message gets to the teams and players in the vein that it was intended. I would be remiss in my duties as the head of the world’s largest tournament league if I let these types of actions continue unpunished. The result of the misdeeds of players at this past event goes far beyond the scope of most players’ knowledge. We are losing sponsorship. We are losing respect. We are now losing the ability for teams to stay at hotels of their choice simply because they are related to the sport of paintball. If we decide to have another event in Texas, the PSP will not be able to rent equipment from the most reasonable vendor, making production of the event much more difficult. Other Texas paintball events may have to face these same issues. It is a very real possibility that no paintball players will be able to stay at Marriott Hotels in the future.

This is a simple message – players and teams competing in PSP events will be held accountable for their actions and the actions of their teammates and others involved with their team. Heed the warning!

Lane Wright
CEO/President
Paintball Sports Promotions

JB.

marvin-martian
03-24-2006, 07:57 PM
can i get a tldr?

DyNasty9
03-24-2006, 07:58 PM
wow that thing about t-money is pretty stupid/weird. cant believe he did that.
on the subject of the refs and players fighting i think as long as the player doesnt touch/or shoot the ref it should be alowed to argue a call, but if the player goes over the top swearing and stuff i think he should recieve some punishment.

QAZ123
03-24-2006, 08:11 PM
can i get a tldr?
Sorry there's no way I can do a tldr to that unless I make a tldr to my initial tldr which then would be too long to read also.

Sorry,
JB.

Voodoo27909
03-24-2006, 10:41 PM
Personally I dont feel that ANY PLAYER should be allowed to question a Ref call in ANY degree. I feel that if there is a dispute...it should be made by an OFF FIELD coach of some sort ONLY, and OFF the playing field all together. The field is a place for competition between the players...not between the players and the ref's.

BTW...the ref's can eject a player for argueing....and ultimately, the ref's are to blame for letting this issue go un-challanged for so long that it has become an acceptable part of the game to argue with the ref's (and yes...I ref tourneys often...and share some blame as well).

Bad calls happen..there is ALOT going on out there on the field during a game. No man is perfect (PB ref's are as close as it gets though!!...lol). Get over it...move on. Every team gets their share of good AND bad calls.

druid
03-25-2006, 01:14 AM
Personally I dont feel that ANY PLAYER should be allowed to question a Ref call in ANY degree. I feel that if there is a dispute...it should be made by an OFF FIELD coach of some sort ONLY, and OFF the playing field all together. The field is a place for competition between the players...not between the players and the ref's.
I disagree. All too often you run into Ref's that have friends on teams...are teammates off-season and end up being biased or "don't see" what they are supposed to. Couple the fact that they already have a God complex...now, give them complete autonomy?...I say no.
BTW...the ref's can eject a player for argueing....and ultimately, the ref's are to blame for letting this issue go un-challanged for so long that it has become an acceptable part of the game to argue with the ref's (and yes...I ref tourneys often...and share some blame as well).
Very true...the Ref's that allow it to happen are either A) scared; B) Too small/young to do anything about it at that time when everyone's adrenalin is spiked; C) playing favorites; D) Don't care for one reason or another. Everyone is on this 'drama' kick lately and people think it's funny...when it's truly sad.
Bad calls happen..there is ALOT going on out there on the field during a game. No man is perfect (PB ref's are as close as it gets though!!...lol). Get over it...move on. Every team gets their share of good AND bad calls.

Well, I agree with the suspensions as listed above. People (mostly kids) run around thinking they can do whatever they want, whenever they want and deny their accountability in the matter. They try to justify antisocial behavior behind the shroud of 'just having some fun' and really don't care what happens to them...until it's too late. If I were the hotel owner/manager, I'd go after every registered guest that had a damaged room and sue them for the rennovations...then ban them from ever staying at one of my hotels.
...and PSP can try to regulate what happens off-field by enacting these types of punishments...but they really shouldn't have to. They shouldn't be held liable for damages (unless it's in the contract with the hotel) for something out of their immediate control. The guests should be arrested for vandalism, disorderly conduct, public disturbance and other related charges. Put the blame where it belongs...on the snot-nosed punks with no concept of societal decency...

shunut
03-25-2006, 08:50 AM
I totally agree with that actions that PSP is taking. I think the consequences should be greater and fines should be handed out. Hopefully this will deter other teams and players from doing any such thing in the future.

Chris Cole
03-25-2006, 11:18 AM
The whole mass suspension thing is mind boggling. Daniel Orren (aka Donkey) is a friend of mine and I've met Tanner Russell several times. I'm all for people getting punished if you break the rules, but I think the PSP went too far.

Lifetime ban for doing something people try to do at every tournament on the planet? Harsh much? Indefinite suspensions for someone who may or may not have done something outside of the Venue? I don't know the PSP rule book chapter and verse but that doesn't seem right.

Not to mention, asaulting another player on the field gets you removed from the match and the only punitive measure comes from your sponsors? Lying about your experience gets you banned for life? I can't reconcile these things in my head.

The internal fallout from these punishments could be devastating, series sponsors could conceivably sue the league to get some of these punishments reversed. More teams will leave the PSP (which at this point I think is a better league) for the "greener pastures" of the NPPL.

I don't have a solution, but this is bad. Actually, if we start enforcing the rules on the field, then maybe we'll quit attracting the types of thugs that destroy hotel rooms and field equipment.

vikingshadow
03-25-2006, 12:26 PM
First of all, I have to say I apologize for posting this in another thread - I didn't read this thread so was unaware it was already posted! Sorry Dragon!

I do, however, have some thoughts on this matter...not that anyone would care much about what a low level player in a backwater part of a backwater state has to say - although the team and players in question come from here or nearby. Some of you are going to say, "tl;dr" and that's a shame because quite honestly, it's time for this sport to pull it's head out of it's butt if it's going to grow and become a respected sport. I'm not addressing the idiots that go buy a wal-mart gun and shoot up the town, I'm talking about those of us that are "supposedly" smarter and have better heads on our shoulders.

Let's get to it....

Is this development a symptom of a sport that's, in part, growing out of control? Or is the resulting attitudes of the players the problem? If so, what can be done about it to stop tragedy from happening? And an even better question is, Why is it such a shock to everyone when cheaters get caught and punished?

Cheating is cheating...plain and simple. You get caught, you get busted. Sack up and shut up. Apologize, and go on. Say, "Dang, I tried it and got caught, now I'm paying the price and I deserve it!" Instead, you get a 14 page thread on PBNation about "So what? Everyone cheats..." And constant shifting of blame so that now it's the players against the league. How pathetic!

I agree in light of some of the things Chris mentioned, the punishment dolled out seems inconsistant with previous penalties for what appear to be more serious offenses on the field. HOWEVER, I think that the PSP, the NPPL and other major venues are responsible and should take responsibility for the attitudes in paintball. They've made a bed that they now have to lay in, and quite honestly, that bed is very uncomfortable for them right now.

Plain English...for years, cheating has run rampant (whether it happens in other sports is irrelevant - we're talking the sport of paintball here) and rather than address the problem and dole out PROPER punishments, they have ignored it and tried to make the fields even by instituting ramping caps, player attire, time penalties for wiping, etc. Now, when it's a financial liability, they feel it's time to take control. It's like a parent who's kid is totally out of control, but they've allowed it for so long so long as it isn't interfering with their lives (I've seen this WAY too many times....) and they think they can control it by penalizing them a little now. But all that happens is confusion, the child now thinks the parent is mean, unfair and will do anything to get even.

Also, for years, from what I've seen just since I started playing, the overall attitude of a large majority of paintball players has been immature and childish, and not at all sportsmanlike. (For those this doesn't apply to, ignore this rant - although most of the time, the person who does this doesn't want to acknowledge that he actually does this.) In fact, what it appears to most outsiders is that these are the kids/adults who couldn't make the team in high school, who are gangster wannabes, and they think because they hold onto a paintball GUN, they can talk and spew attitude everywhere. Quite frankly, it's been turning the public and even paintball players themselves AWAY from the sport (most notably and latest are Tiger, and even less notable - myself.)

Now, it's hit the PSP's pocketbook and all of a sudden it's bad. Marriott is turning it's back on the league, and now the PSP's feelings are hurt. Really, I'm surprised it didn't already happen! I've heard horror stories about attitude, destruction, disrespect, etc, from every venue from the Texas venue this year to the Disneyworld venue almost every year. I personally wouldn't be surprised to hear of other large corporations turning their backs on the sport. I heard someone recently say that the sport is going to totally turn around and go right back into the woods because someone opened the door and let the idiots in....I have to say I agree with that.

Let's look at the general attitude in the sport. (I promise to stay away from PBnation, which I feel, believe it or not, ALLOWS and TEACHES people to be this way....and I believe is a serious bane to the sport. Let's face it. If you'd had these attitudes 5-10 years ago, you'd have been called a prick and shuned in public....now it's the rage in forums to be this way!)

"It's ok to wipe - if you don't get caught." "It's ok to sandbag and enter a division lower than you should be." "It's ok to bonus ball to let them know they can't get away with it." "It's ok to ramp a little higher than allowed so long as you don't get caught." "Although I just started a little while ago, anyone who disagrees with me is an ******* and MUST be a noob." "The TRAINED refs at these events are idiots and we'd have won had it not been for them."

You can continue with it for days...and still only scratch the surface. I myself have been guilty of some of these infractions, and I'm not like that at all! I believe the sport itself has become a sport that lends itself to cheating, even if it's under the guise of "I only do it because it's naive to think you'll win anything if you don't. They cheat, so I cheat right back or first!"

Doesn't that fall under the, "My daddy's bigger than yours and can kick your daddy's butt," category of immaturity?

Now, I know that there are going to be people who disagree - that's ok. However, I honestly believe that paintball as a mainstream sport is on a path to self-destruction. That is if it continues with the attitudes of the players like they are now. How did it happen? Maybe when we decided to get professionals and make divisions and give out prizes for winners. It's the American way to get paid and get laid....but maybe it shouldn't be that way in this sport.

Anyway, my response to the PSP, NPPL and other leagues is, "What took you idiots so long? You should have been doing this from the start. GET TOUGH AND STAY TOUGH and maybe you won't have to worry about it anymore!" And, if you lose money from lack of players, so what? The sport will be clean, it'll look good, and you'll get newer, fresher players with better attitudes that will actually PROMOTE the sport rather than DETRACT from it.

tl;dr???? Here's the short version. PSP, NPPL and other leagues are fostering the bad attitudes in the sport today. Forums like PBnation are teaching children and otherwise normal adjusted adults how to have those bad attitudes. Players need to pull their heads out of their butts, stop with the attitudes, and just have fun. The sport is self-destructing and the only people that can stop it from happening are the players, but they're too busy being prickheads to do that.

marvin-martian
03-25-2006, 12:45 PM
Players need to pull their heads out of their butts, stop with the attitudes, and just have fun.

learn from your own teachings vike. have fun.

vikingshadow
03-25-2006, 02:11 PM
That's kind of the point I was trying to make...I was falling in those categories I listed, but I needed to pull my head out as well. I'm not excluding myself from my post above....Now, I desperately trying to get that back.

Chris Cole
03-25-2006, 04:12 PM
I was headed that way, luckily I've changed.

Awesome rant Vike.

claustrophobia9
03-25-2006, 06:36 PM
i think the psp should have done more.

ttink
03-25-2006, 07:32 PM
I think these punishments are more severe than before because they are TRYING to crack down on things now, and that is how things will be in the future to try to "mend" things up (as much as/if possible).

What i dont understand is how this bad attitude/stupidity became so widespread. It seems to be a common thing in almost all tourney players. I dont understand how so many people can act that way and still be accepted as cool or "agg".

thechubbss12
03-26-2006, 07:22 AM
I dont know i totaly agree with Vikes rant and me being a local torney ref and have reffed a couple of torneys seem to get this alot. All the Bs of he was hit when clearly he wasnt. Sometimes it makes my blood boil enough to break those kids faces, knowing i could do that is probibly the worst part.....


But that is aside the point personaly i hate PBNation, i think its the worst thing in paintball since cheater boards were invented. I see the site and it says 220,000 users the first thing i think is hummm 220,000 users and 200,000 noobs that suck at life so bad they should go die in a corner. now granted there is some knowledge that can be learned but most of the stuff on PBNation is not worth sitting through to get to that one person who is actuly knowledgeable and worth listening too.

The cheating personaly when i play i try as intentivly to not cheat no matter if it mean the diffrence from winning or loosing. ive probibly lost many torneys to that fact but to me it just means i need to train harder and be good enough to beat thoses that cheat by not cheating my self. My attitude may be set by this becasue i grew up playing two organised sports and am still playing football.

Lastly profesional paintball refs are freaking awesome ive seen so many bad calls in other profesional sports that a paintball ref would never make. But there is one thing that any paintball league need to impliment into there Cheating prevention programs. Video tape the game, becasue video doesnt lie. Take the measure of sending player off the field becasue they got in the refs face show them that you dont care what they have to say. Lastly refs need to listen to the coach and the coach only on the side of the field. I know that if i got in a football refs face not only would i be sent off the field and out of the game but my coach would be running me until i was dry heaving so hard i couldnt breath....

druid
04-03-2006, 09:18 PM
I just found this...and anyone in the sport that remembers TYGER will remember the kind of baller he was...the type of PERSON he is...and why his departure from the sport was so distressing to many....

http://forum.specialopspaintball.com/index.php?showtopic=50365

I did my part...I think many others should also...(HINT).....

leed
04-03-2006, 09:19 PM
I think what Dru is giving is a good idea, I'm doing it.