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maximus100389
03-22-2006, 08:12 PM
Now before you start bashing/protesting/whining I want you to read my entire post. Thanks.

I'm making this thread to discuss homosexuality. I just came back from a Young Life meeting and we already had one, and from it I think I learned a lot and came to some sort of personal understanding. I don't want this to turn into a gay rights debate because that's completely off topic. I want to talk about homosexuality itself because I think you can gain a lot of understanding from listening to what other people have to say.

Some of the more interesting topics to talk about are whether it's genetic, a choice, or a subconcious (excuse my spelling) thing; why you think it is right or wrong, or whether you can say it is right or wrong.

My personal opinion that I've seemed to formed is that I think that homosexuality is gained subcionsouly through the person's environment. Something like 85% of gays were sexualy abused as a child. Another interesting thing I learned is that in Greece, I think it is, they have something like 5 words for different types of love. I think it's pretty interesting seeing as how we only have one word, love. I mean, there are a lot of different types of love and I don't see how you can say that the type of love you have for your parents is the same type of love you would have for your friends or for your girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband. This kind of ties in with why some people are/choose to be homosexual.

I just wanted to open this up for a civilized discussion.

Moe
03-22-2006, 08:20 PM
young life??? my brother is a leader for that...or somethin like that. As for homosexuality, i fully beleive that it is the environment that you grow up in. It is not genetic. Thats like saying whether you like monster trucks or barbies is genetic...no, it is how you are raised. I do beleive that homosexuality is a sin, but i also know that i sin everyday. I truely beleive that god is the only one who can judge anyone. just because someone is gay doesnt mean they are going to hell.

You bring up an amazingly awesome point about love. I was actually reading something my girlfriend wrote to another guy and it was like i love you blah blah blah...and i was just like wait...it kind of hit me....like, she loves him..she loves me...how can the same word be used in those two completely opposite relationships? I, personally, think that the word love is overused in general. To me, love is something that is sacred. I truely love very few people, and it is a bit of petpeave(sp?) of mine when people throw around the word love like it is hello.

timmyshoota
03-22-2006, 08:21 PM
Another interesting thing I learned is that in Greece, I think it is, they have something like 5 words for different types of love. I think it's pretty interesting seeing as how we only have one word, love. I mean, there are a lot of different types of love and I don't see how you can say that the type of love you have for your parents is the same type of love you would have for your friends or for your girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband. This kind of ties in with why some people are/choose to be homosexual.


I've been irritated by this also. Sometimes its hard to find the words to say, because they can be seen as meaning different things. Since we only have one word for love, I guess I can say I love my friends, my family, yadda yadda, but its all different levels of love. Its irritating sometimes.

I also believe the same way you do about the homosexuality. I really don't think its choice at all. I don't choose to like females. I just do. Its whats been implanted in my brain from day one. This is another reason why I am not Christian. I got tired of the different sects being anti-gay. I won't continue to discuss them, because I'm sure I'd be owned by the swear filter.

maximus100389
03-22-2006, 08:26 PM
Another thing we talked about, or kind of agreed apon, being homosexual isn't the sin. The actual act of having sex with your same gender would be the sin; something close to that. And it isn't like homosexuals can't go to heaven, God can forgive anyone. Then again, I am Christian and I have my own beliefs, but it isn't like I think less of gay people, I mean, they are just sinning, like I do when I swear. I don't hate people who swear, or hate peolpe who think lustful thoughts or something because we all sin so I don't see how it is different.

Basicly what I'm trying to say is that I think it's wrong to hate gay people just because they are gay. They are sinning, just like you.

Nader
03-22-2006, 08:50 PM
Another thing we talked about, or kind of agreed apon, being homosexual isn't the sin. The actual act of having sex with your same gender would be the sin; something close to that. And it isn't like homosexuals can't go to heaven, God can forgive anyone. Then again, I am Christian and I have my own beliefs, but it isn't like I think less of gay people, I mean, they are just sinning, like I do when I swear. I don't hate people who swear, or hate peolpe who think lustful thoughts or something because we all sin so I don't see how it is different.

Basicly what I'm trying to say is that I think it's wrong to hate gay people just because they are gay. They are sinning, just like you.

"Love the Sinner hate the sin." I hate to see churches that won't allow homosexuals in the building because they are "unclean." Shouldn't we be spreading the Love of God? How can we do that and at the same time be so anti-gay people? It's also very hard for me to accept that homosexuals are searching for God too perhaps. I see the sin in them and it's hard for me to not judge them because of it.
But I also hate to see that some churches are accepting homosexuality as an acceptable practice.

Another thing we talked about, or kind of agreed apon, being homosexual isn't the sin. The actual act of having sex with your same gender would be the sin; something close to that.

Hmmm, but if you look at someone with lustful, homosexual intentions, aren't you committing the same as if committing the actual act?

ricochet08
03-22-2006, 08:53 PM
:applause: well said maximus, well said :applause:

maximus100389
03-22-2006, 08:57 PM
well lust as itself is a sin. so its basicly just a form of lust.

i completely agree with the love the sinner hate the sin quote. we are supposed to be loving people, but at the same time we are hating them just because they are different from us because of their sins.

and thanks, ricochet :)

Nader
03-22-2006, 09:03 PM
What do you think about some large churches starting accept homosexuality as a viable lifestyle?
I hate it. Churches should accept the gays into their church, but at the same time try to drive out that homosexual lifestyle. Accepting them as people doesn't mean we should accept that what they do is right...

EDIT: here's a link http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4651803.stm

maximus100389
03-22-2006, 09:10 PM
well...i think that that's a bit of a touchy subject. I mean, it would be great if the gay person wanted, key word wanted, to change their lifestlye. At the same time its wrong to try to force them to change their lifestyle. its great to give help and its a great idea, i just dont see many people trying to drive the other sins out of people like swearing or porn.

its like the media has created this "gay lifestyle" and its becoming widely accepted, which im not totally against. it is good that they are being accepted by people and not being hated or threatened as much. theres a lot more understanding for them now, but at the same time it has created the gay lifestyle so its seems like it growing because in some opinions ive heard, its become a "fad." now im not sure i comepletely agree with that opinion but it does make some sense. just look at how many TV shows focus on homosexuality. "***** eye for the straight guy" and some episodes of "next" on MTV. and also "date my mother."

Nader
03-22-2006, 09:23 PM
yeah, I agree that the person needs to be wanting a change.

Hehe I've been called a "metrosexual" before....not sure how I feel about it...
Anyways, the media has indeed created a "gay lifestyle" and it has made a little more empathy towards them, but at the same time it has caused people to believe more and more that homosexuality is acceptable, and I belive that that is detrimental to society.

We joke around about being gay, talking with lisps and such, but the media has caused us to belive that all gays are socialite fashionistas that own a clothing store or something, when most of them (that I know of) are loney, usually single men or women that are "searching for love in all the wrong places," sorry for the cliche...they don't have nice clothes, and have a livin' large lifestyle.

big_daddy_d
03-22-2006, 11:26 PM
gonna tackle this post in the morning when the meds wear off. Expect an edit ;)

druid
03-23-2006, 12:04 AM
...:dodgy:...all the KUSA-heads know that I do not mince words. I refuse to "fluff" or "padd" my comments to make someone feel better about themselves. I will try to be civil, but I make no promises. That being said...

1. Homosexuality is both the "desired thought" and "ACT" of having sex with the same sex. You cannot be a homosexual without one or the other.
2. The Bible is explicit when condemning it (although the Bible is a culmination of several authors of 'short stories' (for the lack of a better term) and is written as such, with the intention of promoting heterosexuality/morality.
3. For the Athiest...barring all things religious....with the exception of some amphibians and earthworms (and related species, perhaps some foul...), two life forms of the same species and of same sex cannot procreate. If you cannot procreate, you cannot replennish the herd. If you cannot replennish the herd, your species dies out. Eggs require fertilization. Period.
4. Humans and dolphins (and I'm sure more than these 2) are the only species (that I'm aware of) that copulate for 'fun'...as opposed to "solely for reproduction"
5. The act of homosexuality...the way in which they...uh...'engage with each-other'...is un-natural. Nothing that they 'do' can produce offspring...and...'things' aren't being put where they are supposed to be put...thus, it's un-natural.

Now that the nice-ities are through....IMO it's deplorable behavior. I don't know if it's genetic, psychological or sociological failure that causes it. My own religious beliefs say, it's just wrong...included by scientific and societal standards, it's wrong. Religion condemns it and science can't explain it. My belief? I think it's either a hormonal imbalance or a genetic defect that hasn't been detected yet.
I'll share a (not so) short story that directly relates to this...
I live in an apartment on the first floor. 1 year ago there was a single lady in her 30's-40's that lived above me. She got a room mate just before she went to jail for DUI. The room mate was a cross-gender reasignment candidate...going from male to female. It was obvious that only part of the program was completed...the upper torso...was...uh...'full'. Likewise...nothing was removed from the cellar...if you get my drift...Now, it's summertime and my 2 younger daughters of 8 and 6 are playing out front, while I sat on the porch watching them. This room mate comes down the steps with a wash basket full of womens' clothing and drops a thong on the step. My 6 yr old looks at him and says "hey!....you dropped your panties"...I ignored this as she was trying to be helpful. He said "thank you" in a barritone-faking-to-be-an-alto voice - and kept loading stuff into the car. She then turned to him and said "Hey...I gotta question..." He said "yes?" she asked "are you a boy or a girl?" he responded "a girl, why?" Well...My daughter...who is definately my child says..."well then you better shave before you look like a motorcycle dude." Me, trying not to laugh my a.. off, said "enough" and she stopped and continued to play with the older sister while he got ticked off and sped away in the car. After he left, there were the 5,000 questions about him. So...what am I supposed to tell my 6 yr old? I refuse to lie about anything to anyone...so how do I handle this new situation? I shouldn't have to explain this to her. No child should have to be exposed to that type of environment. It's not right and it's not fair to the children...or the parents who have to explain it to them.
Now...it was mentioned that a possible reason for homosexuality was some type of abuse or molestation. While that's certainly possible, it probably only accounts for a small percentage of the population affected. More likely, the fairy-tales (no pun intended) used in a 'made for TV' show or movie.
While we're on the subject, this also relates to the conversation. I believe that same-sex marriages and child adoption by them is wrong. In my mind, it's a 'recruitment' tactic...and it's at the expense of that child - not in the sense that they are recruiting gays and lesbians - but that they are creating a group of people that will, in time, champion their cause for them. The riddicule that the child(ren) face by other classmates (in the mean-time) is relentless. We all know that a child can be the most 'honestly, but cruel' individuals...having '2 mommies' or '2 daddies' is waaaaaaay different than having a single mom or dad and thus, the antagonizing is worse. These kids...many of whom, have lived a life in an adoption agency...now have a new problem to deal with...new cruellties to overcome. Those that were adopted shortly after birth get it later...but they still get it. And since they are brought up to believe that this is 'normal' by the individuals raising them, it serves the homosexual's goal in the long run...a cause fought, simply out of affection towards the people that raised them.

It's wrong. No matter how you try to justify it, it's wrong.

...and Nader, to answer your question about churches...

First and foremost, parents that take their children to church with them, lose the ablity to do so at the age of 18. Many children between the ages of 13 and 18 lose the desire to GO to church, simply because there's not much for them to do. They are too old for Sunday School and not old enough for the Youth Groups. My oldest daughter (17) is experiencing this right now. Also, there's a pluthra of TV churches. Why get up early, get dressed for, sit and be bored in, a large building filled with old people...when you can do it in your jammies, comfy on the sofa? Then there's the Priests that are accused/convicted of molestations. We keep hearing new cases every other week...the cover-ups and the lies...people don't trust Priests or Ministers anymore because of it. The there's the Branch Davidian-types...where brain-washing is King and lives are lost in vain. Then there's the alure of Satanism and Wicca...
...it boils down to money. If the 'old' congregation isn't in the pew, they have to find a new one to fill it. So, allow the homosexuals to participate under the guise of "well, they are sinning, so where should a sinner go to be saved?...church." After all, money in the collection plate is good no matter where it comes from...right?

claustrophobia9
03-23-2006, 02:38 AM
i dont really mind it at all, its different, were all different. but i think the main argument usually begins in "special rights" which i dont believe in.

03TiburonGT
03-23-2006, 03:26 AM
I'm glad that this thread has been opened and kept open. I have some feelings that I would like to express.

I believe entirely that it is environment through the younger years that changes ones sexuality, not genes/heredity.

I know this is a little off topic, but I have no problem with gays being married. It does not affect me if two persons of the same sex are able to celebrate their love for one another. If they do get married, and want kids, its a large chance that they will adopt. This is only beneficial in that the kids overseas or right here in the USA with no parents or guardians and who well might live in poor conditions can get a home with parents that will love them for who they are. They know how it feels to be judged, so they should understand if their adopted child is straight/gay/bi, etc.

I know that the Catholic church doesn't view gays very well, and I am a Catholic who follows just about every belief except this one. I personall don't think it's our business if two people of the same sex want to get married, that does not hurt me or any of you in a direct and most likely indirect way.

thechubbss12
03-23-2006, 04:17 AM
Ahh good to see that no imature idiots decided to post yet =)....

As many of us have stated its probibly the enviroment the child grew up in. Although there are exceptions...... (My Short Story)

I have a friend of mine his name is Clay, his parents are both pastors (combined ministors in one church). Well around the age of 13 he decided he was gay. I dont know if he ever told his parents but he out of the blue after growing up totaly strait around totaly strait people in church he dedcied he was gay. After he proclamed his gayness he eventluy got led into drugs and homosexual orgies. By the age of 16 he was deep into Satianism and magic, spellcaster kind of things, sacrificial rituals, etc. All this time his parents are praying for him and praying hard. One day when he was 17 he started acting diffrent kinda like he was depressed (besides from the depressed look he had had all of this time). It turned out that he had been convicted by God i didnt see him for a week seeing as he had been under a demonic control for over a year. I dont realy no what happend in that week but he denied his homosexuality and begain to change back into the old Clay. He also joined a local christian hardcore band in which he play the keys. He stil wears his eyes liner but he has in this year changed the way he talks, who he talks to and what he does.

In this story the only thing in am trying to say is that gay people are not ment to be gay. Seeing as i am a strong belever in mind controlling everything about your body, i think that it is the mind set is being warped and probibly strongly motivated by public view. If everyone were to simeltainisly hate gays i think that it would reduce the number due to the unsocial acceptiance. Peopl hate to be left out they always want to be in with the crowd and some people will do anything to fit in.

QAZ123
03-23-2006, 05:19 AM
It doesn't affect or harm my life therefore it doesn't bother me.

I think it comes from a person lifestyle/surrounding's in early year's.

I would rather see somebody openly gay and in a relationship than somebody living a heterosexual life or married with kid's but will take an oppurtunity given to molest a child or rape someone as obviously that happen's more than we think. That was a little off topic but yeah I just read the statistic's on how many people are molested at an early age and by whom which most are family or people close to the family.

JB.

BallerX
03-23-2006, 05:23 AM
" 4. Humans and dolphins (and I'm sure more than these 2) are the only species (that I'm aware of) that copulate for 'fun'...as opposed to "solely for reproduction" "

Ah yes. "copulate for fun". Good stuff. But statement like this bring up other questions. Everytime you had sex you were trying to procreate? Me not think so. I think those of us who have done it, have done it more than once for just the fun of sex.

So how does this relate to the discussion of homosexuality? Now - I don't think dolphins "swing both ways" but I think the idea of having sex for fun is at the root of homosexuality. It's a whole, "do what feels good" attitude. Sex with members of the opposite sex is good, lets try sex with members of the same sex!!

I have a good number of homosexual friends, and these are, mostly, people from stable, good homes. Most of these people went through the better part of thier lives, well into thier 30s being straight. I have only two gay friends who have never had a heterosexual experience. These people grew up "normal" and one day decided to give homosexuality a try. Some of them still go back and forth, and other are "life partners" and perfectly happy normal couples. None of them are Satanists, none of them are evil people. Thier not all good people either.

I was raised irish roman catholic. Things were pretty damned strict for me growing up. I don't resent anything from my catholic upbringing, but I think that led me to where I am spiritually right now. I don't consider myself of any faith at the moment. Buddhist religion has been my focus as of late, and I have been learning all I can about the various religions of the world. Call it a hooby.

But know my homosexual friends as well as I do, I can not accpet that they are any less "normal" than anyone else. I don't feel that what they are doing is "wrong" or out of balance with nature. I think it's a result of "sex for pleasure", and I can't condem them for doing what feels good to them, without condeming the rest of us for the same thing.

claustrophobia9
03-23-2006, 08:26 AM
this is WAY tl; and i dont think i have the attention span to r it. but i will say what i think about gay marriage. i believe a gay couple should have rights to any benifits a "married couple" has that involve insurance or taxes, etc. but when it comes down to it, marriage is a PROCREATION bonding, whether or not it is by the state or by a church. gay couples simply can't create life and add to economy, their choice affects their opportunities. i'm not against a gay person getting married, they can marry and woman(if male) or man(if female) they want with both party's consent, just like the rest of us... but i don't see what good that would do them. im fine with homosexual people being out there and i'll treat them like my friends if they are my friends, but i feel that a "decision" (quoted because i dont believe choice is real, and others argue that homosexuality is by birth not choice... but i wont get into that) should have consequences, and just because they are different doesn't mean they should get one up on everyone else. just to give a feel for what i mean ill give another example. don't make those who are different greater, to make them feel like they are equal. make them equal, whether or not they feel that they are actually equal. marriage is a vow to the community that the couple being bound will be a procreative (for creation, ie, baby making).

im also glad this got kept open so i could say what i needed to and so that others could too

BallerX
03-23-2006, 09:09 AM
So marriage is only for procreation??? I disagree whole-heartidly with that statement. My marriage to my wife is a vow I've taken between her, myself, and our god(s). No one else. Not my family, not hers, not our community, not any one else's god(s).

There are tax and insurance benefits to being married. These benefits should be available to anyone who has taken on the same commitment to another that I have taken on between my wife and myself. Thats equality.

QAZ123
03-23-2006, 09:27 AM
So marriage is only for procreation??? I disagree whole-heartidly with that statement. My marriage to my wife is a vow I've taken between her, myself, and our god(s). No one else. Not my family, not hers, not our community, not any one else's god(s).
.

I agree.

I know one couple that has been married for over twenty year's and hasn't had there own kid's and there is no health problem's stopping it they just have chosen to adopt.

JB.

TheRedBarron
03-23-2006, 10:34 AM
I'm glad that this thread has been opened and kept open. I have some feelings that I would like to express.



Tis open but being watched very closely.

I wont offer my status in this debate for fear of offending either side.

big_daddy_d
03-23-2006, 10:55 AM
Ok gonna pipe in now, meds aren't affecting me as much today... Me personally I don't care one way or another. I feel and these are just my opinions that everyone is entitled to live their life the way they want. Homosexual, heterosexual thats up to you... For one the godfather of my son is an out of the closet homosexual, you would never know it if you were to come across him on the street but regardless he is. I try to be open minded with everyone I meet, in my younger and wilder days when my wife and I would go out to clubs etc in the San Francisco area I was hit on by gay males quite often, 9 times out of 10 all I had to say was well nice to meet you, now meet my wife and folks would back off. For the ones that didn't get the message, ok yes words started getting heated but eventually they would get the message...Now back onto the topic, someone said genetic mutation, and same sex couples shouldn't be allowed to adopt, granted those are your opinions but you also have to factor in how you've been raised and all those other stimuli that have been around you all your life. I think religion is the biggest stimulus of people and how they approach the issue of homosexuality, most people I have met that have a strong religious background tend to not be so accepting of that other individuals choices, while others I have met that haven't had as strict a religious upbringing are more accepting to the issue. Personally I feel whats there to debate we can go back and forth in this thread until we can type no more but that doesn't change the fact that there are still going to be gay's in the world. Tolerance is the key here I think...

claustrophobia9
03-23-2006, 11:06 AM
So marriage is only for procreation??? i NEVER said only... i said marraige SUPPORTS procreation.

BallerX
03-23-2006, 11:42 AM
...but when it comes down to it, marriage is a PROCREATION bonding...
...marriage is a vow to the community that the couple being bound will be a procreative (for creation, ie, baby making)...

Marriage being ONLY for procreation may not have been your point, but those statements just led me to think that way.

We should probably let it go though, for fear of having the thread closed. ;)

I don't want to start anything anyway, thats just the point I took away from your post, and I apparently interperted the meaning incorrectly.

druid
03-23-2006, 11:54 AM
I disagree that same-sex marriages don't affect other people. This is one example: When a same-sex couple is 'all-of-a-sudden(ly?)' stricken with a terrible (and normally incurable) disease, it affects us...I'll mention the word that's been dodged for this long...HIV/AIDS. Now before anyone jumps me for this...not all homosexuals have contracted HIV/AIDS...however...they have a greater tendency to contract it...just like IV drug users. Unless the average Hetero person comes in contact with infectious material, or a person aflicted (coupled with a sexual act---PROTECTED OR NOT), the chances are they won't get it. However, simple and everyday things like donating blood and bone marrow...organs...CPR, car accidents, hypodermic needles and everything 'hazmat'...all pose a serious risk to those not infected. The meds that combat HIV/AIDS are insanely expensive and who ends up paying for them? Insurance companies-Insurance companies like State Farm, Progressive, Blue Closs/Blue Shield, Geico....all companies that at some point, everyone must belong to...and we pay high premiums as it is...to offset their cost of paying out the money, they charge the crap out of everyone. Why? because someone couldn't/wouldn't control their 'urge' and became infected...in addition to the innocent but unwittingly infected...
I work in a Prison. The majority of HIV/Aids infected people are IV drug users...but there are homosexuals that are infected. Anyone infected must be treated...and generally, they are indigent (without money) and are entitled to equal medical treatment. Well...those meds they couldn't afford before are now provided at the government's expense...which is recovered in the form of taxes. I have a real problem with this...and this is just the prison system. Imagine the cost of inmate health care for this...now quadruple it for the 'non-prison' health care systems. It takes money to treat/cure an (incurable) disease...and whether you know it or not, taxes and insurance premiums pay the majority of it. Many people reading this board aren't old enough to even care about taxes and insurance policies...haha...wait until they get their first bill...

Then there's the world of the unknown...police officers, EMS, crime labs...kids in school-yard fights across the Nation...who don't know the person who is bleeding...and don't know what's in their blood...are exposed to the same risks. For the Heterosexuals in this group...how about that girl you want to date( and other things)? Who was she with before you?...and him, before her? Did they use drugs? How about protection during sex? and the people before them?

Infection...It affects them, their families and their friends...and there's no real way to know, either. Why? because the person infected has the right to medical privacy. That means, unless they tell you, or allow the doctors to tell you, no one can tell you if they have it. And so now these people that can't know, ave to go for testing...at the employer's or insurance companies expense...more taxes and premium payments...

Do you see where this is leading? Perhaps not...but eventually you will...and you'll coddle the ideas that "it doesn't affect me" even less....

big_daddy_d
03-23-2006, 12:06 PM
Druid I usually agree with what you have to say but the last post threw me for a loop and maybe it's just me. The average heterosexual person has just as much of a risk of contracting aids versus the homosexual person. When the stats started coming out in the 80's when the epidemic took off, it was mainly homosexual men who contracted it. Will spare the details for the younger board member here on why this was so prevalent due to physiology and such but at the same time, a heterosexual with numerous partners is just as much at risk of catching the HIV virus too, IMO your post came across as saying that GAYs=AIDS when there are people that are on the heterosexual side that partake in risky practices that equally put them at risk as well. Wish I can find the article I read not too long ago that showed that the number of aids cases in gays was declining while the numbers in heterosexuals was on the rise...

QAZ123
03-23-2006, 12:07 PM
Edit-
I didn't quote it but this was quoted to druid not big d!

I believe your right. If you had a pie chart on a demographic percentage of people infected with aids I would say gay male's would be in the top. I would say a demographic for straight male and females wouldn't be too far behind though but not sure on any of this.


I have more problem's with insurance claim lawyer's screwing with my insurance though geez I hate those guy's! Get in a wreck call me and we'll sue everybody we can to make you happy!!:mad: :mad:

JB.

druid
03-23-2006, 12:17 PM
Druid I usually agree with what you have to say but the last post threw me for a loop and maybe it's just me. The average heterosexual person has just as much of a risk of contracting aids versus the homosexual person. When the stats started coming out in the 80's when the epidemic took off, it was mainly homosexual men who contracted it. Will spare the details for the younger board member here on why this was so prevalent due to physiology and such but at the same time, a heterosexual with numerous partners is just as much at risk of catching the HIV virus too, IMO your post came across as saying that GAYs=AIDS when there are people that are on the heterosexual side that partake in risky practices that equally put them at risk as well. Wish I can find the article I read not too long ago that showed that the number of aids cases in gays was declining while the numbers in heterosexuals was on the rise...

NO NO NO...please re read my writing! I believe I said anyone can get it...not just from homosexual acts....read the part about police, and girlfirends...and the prison...

...this last diatribe was intended to change the general outlook that "if I'm not involved, it won't affect me." and I believe that to be so wrong...because I believe it does.

PLEASE don't think that I'm identifying HIV/AIDS solely with homosexuality...that's not the case. I said that the instances of infection are higher in gay couples and IV drug users...and ALSO said that not all gay people are infected. Please re-read my writing.....

durrell
03-23-2006, 12:19 PM
I believe it is sheer nonsense to believe that a Gay person could in fact, be born Gay. That is rediculous and there is NO way to medically prove to me that a person can be born gay.

I agree with whoever it was that said Gays learn their homesexuality from experiences as a child. I don't like gays, I don't agree with gays, and I most certainly am a very large advocate for banning gay marriages and the sanctity of a real marriage. I am not a homophobe, I can be around gay people and be fine with it but I don't enjoy being with gay men because that's just weird.

I could go on but for the sake of the thread and for the sake of my own mind I really dont feel like debating anything tonight or looking up figures..

big_daddy_d
03-23-2006, 12:26 PM
Druid Like I said it may have been how I perceived what I read. As they keep telling us during our training classes once a quarter, perception is reality to the person doing the perceiving...

NB_Hacker_NB
03-23-2006, 12:27 PM
You bring up an amazingly awesome point about love. I was actually reading something my girlfriend wrote to another guy and it was like i love you blah blah blah...and i was just like wait...it kind of hit me....like, she loves him..she loves me...how can the same word be used in those two completely opposite relationships?
NEVER tell a girl that you love them and don't let them tell them you love them...hit it and quit it. As for gays...I personally don't care, we all sin everyday, but I don't feel comfortable around them...I have an uncle and a cousin that is gay. I think it's alright for women to be a lesbian as long as they are hot.

And another question. Why are gays called homosexuals and humans are called homosapians?
Shouldn't it be-Hederosapians?

claustrophobia9
03-23-2006, 12:34 PM
I believe it is sheer nonsense to believe that a Gay person could in fact, be born Gay. That is rediculous and there is NO way to medically prove to me that a person can be born gay.

I agree with whoever it was that said Gays learn their homesexuality from experiences as a child. i dont think it is a choice or a birth (genetic, i do believe it is decided far before birth) when a person is born, they have a set of insticts, and monkey-see/hear-monkey-do/say abilities. a child is a sponge that absorbs everything, and changes its path accordingly, there is no choice in the matter, only instict breaking down into what the mind tells itself is choice. every good liar knows that the first step is to lie to yourself, it isnt that hard really, considering you do it to yourself everyday without thinking about it. every "choice" you make is electrical signals in you brain being interpreted by membrane and tissue. situations being filtered through aquired knowlege and logic, being filtered through "emotions" and "conscience" which are basically just logical pricipals based on a set of rules that were developed as the child grew. being gay isnt a choice, but niether is anything else. every thing is based on a set of causes forming an incredibly complex system. you may be telling yourself that you dont believe this, you might not... but if you believe these 3 things then you do, whether you know it or not:
1. there is a superior being, (a) G(g)od
2. that superior being is all knowing
3. that superior being created all existance.

because if the superior being created everything, then (it?) created it in a very specific way. if that being is all knowing, it knows what you have done, are doing and WILL do. if it knows what WILL be done, then it is already done, and there is no changing it. You say "i'll change it now" i say that you read this, and your path was altered in a way that had already been seen an been analyzed by the events that have occured and the events that are occuring.

and hacker, do you have a problem with relationships?

BallerX
03-23-2006, 01:10 PM
...this last diatribe was intended to change the general outlook that "if I'm not involved, it won't affect me." and I believe that to be so wrong...because I believe it does.


Thats what I took from your post. And I agree with you. No man is an island. We are all connected. My actions can and will affect others. Nothing irrates me more than to think of the speed at which america is becoming a welfare state.

maximus100389
03-23-2006, 02:16 PM
NEVER tell a girl that you love them and don't let them tell them you love them...hit it and quit it. I think it's alright for women to be a lesbian as long as they are hot.

please keep those immature comments that dont contribute to the topic at all to yourself. I'd like to keep this topic open, and I don't want some comment like that to close it which would ruin the discussion for everyone else.

And another question. Why are gays called homosexuals and humans are called homosapians?
Shouldn't it be-Hederosapians?

Because if you are homosexual that doesn't mean you are a whole different species...

homosexual isnt a species and it's not even a very good word for same sex lovers

NB_Hacker_NB
03-23-2006, 02:18 PM
Because if you are homosexual that doesn't mean you are a whole different species...


Does for me.

maximus100389
03-23-2006, 02:21 PM
well, just goes to show that you dont really have much of an understanding for other people.

i guess if you want to be mature about it it would come down to the fact that homosexuals can procreat with homosapians, so they are one species.

to separate two species the definition is something like "they can't and aren't naturally willing to mate with eachother"

gays can turn straight again it doesnt mean they change species

NB_Hacker_NB
03-23-2006, 02:23 PM
I know, I was trying to get everyone's temper flaring. I understand gays. As I said, I have a homosexual cousin. My gay cousin has a very straight brother, they are twins. The gay one's brother comes over my house everyday and we are very close so I have to hear about him all the time.

maximus100389
03-23-2006, 02:27 PM
ok, but why would you want everyone's temper to rise? whats in it for you? could you not do that? thanks...

NB_Hacker_NB
03-23-2006, 02:29 PM
^ Its fun to start T-R-O-U-B-L-E.

durrell
03-23-2006, 02:41 PM
because if the superior being created everything, then (it?) created it in a very specific way. if that being is all knowing, it knows what you have done, are doing and WILL do. if it knows what WILL be done, then it is already done, and there is no changing it. You say "i'll change it now" i say that you read this, and your path was altered in a way that had already been seen an been analyzed by the events that have occured and the events that are occuring.

and hacker, do you have a problem with relationships?


True, to some extent..if you read the Bible, at certain points it says "A man shall not lay with another man" and "Do not spare the rod on your children" so there is no way if you believe in the superior being (God) that you could believe that it is genetic that a person is homosexual...

druid
03-23-2006, 02:52 PM
homosexual isnt a species and it's not even a very good word for same sex lovers

and "same sex lover" is one of those politically correct phrases that is coined to make something more attractive than it really is. It's designed to make the person or group feel better about themselves and how their behavior is perceived...or force the opinion that it's more acceptable than it really is...

...and yes, I used the very same term ^up there^ (in conflict with what I really wanted to say), simply to contribute to--and and continue the dialogue.

DRAGON
03-23-2006, 03:21 PM
My opinion is it's disgusting and unnatural. If the whole world suddenly turned homo, all living matters(cept hermaphrodites) would cease to exist. It becoming fashionable is just a sign of the times. Seems people will do almost anything to be different or against the grain of nature. Nature will win once again after it's all over. Nature will endure and all else will perish. Millions of years of it's existence has proven so. It ain't the first time and won't be the last. The homosapiens are so intelligent they seek ways to destroy themselves and each other. It's only a matter of time before they do, When it does, don't bother running because there'll be no place to hide -

durrell
03-23-2006, 04:16 PM
"Same sex lovers"..gee

I guess "heterosexual" is not politically correct either is it?

"hetero" = more than one
"homo" = one

so therefore "homosexual" = one sex = Gays

It's just as politically correct as the next term for them..I'll refrain from those words though..

thechubbss12
03-23-2006, 04:23 PM
SO after reading the other posts i figured that the convorsation is on the same topic but changed in the way it was going.....

As for someone who was saying that everything was planned out before they were born, yes that makes absolutly perfect sence. But the whole thing is God gave us brain we are not just robots, we have the ability to choses our destiny and he doesnt have it planned out. He knows what we are going to choose but he didnt rig the whole existance so that we were going to do what he planned us too do.

My personal ideas on why God knew that this was going to happen is that he throws lots of stuff at us. He knows that we will learn from the past and so that we again will not make the same mistake. Im guess that we didnt seem to get it from the Middel Ages (seeng as that was the last time homosexuality was largely around). Although the church delt with them much diffrently and in a much more unhumain way.

Look everything everyone does will affect you in some way no matter how large or small it affects you, it will. I think that it is wrong that the government should have to pay for these meds. We should be chargeing the family that that person belongs. I know that if i contracted HIV i would stop any sexualy activitry and probibly commit suicide knowing that i carry the most dangerous form of biological warfare. Too me that civic duty is the most important of all.

Look Homosexual people are still people and although they are diffrent will still need to learn to understand that. I know that males (me and every other guy on this forum) will have a problem with the homosexuals at one time in there life. Only recently have i gotten over the idea of mass genocide of homosexuals. So know that what i am saying i have premeditated this for a long time.

Recon by Fire
03-23-2006, 04:47 PM
Oh, you fags are going to hell! LOL Okay just kidding!

I think homosexuality (yes, it is the proper term for it not some retarded PC synonym) is a derivitive of genetics and environment/choice. I think it is likely different for everyone. But does it matter? I don't think so. They are or are not gay, that's it.

I wouldn't care if my best friend was gay, wouldn't change anything to me. As long as he was not one of those dramatic flamers like on Will & Grace anyway! At least then you don't have to worry about him trying to sleep with your wife! LOL Always look for the good in things :) Oh, and more women folk for the rest of us too!

xNinja-Dolphinx
03-23-2006, 04:51 PM
K I got to the 2nd page and got bored so...

I recently came apon the fact that my best friend is Bisexual. He was raised in a very unstable home, bu I do not know if thats what has led him to make this choice. When I first found this out, I had absolutely ni idea what to think. First thing that I thought was ewwwww..... But then I realized that it would have no effect on our relatioship as friends so It doesn't bother me anymore, although I still have a hard time believing it sometimes for my self because he doesn't act "gay" with a lisp or talk like a teenage girl or anything like that.

Moral of the story is if it doesn't affect you, dont worry about it, people can make their own choices.

maximus100389
03-23-2006, 05:33 PM
ok when i said "same sex lover" i was definitly not trying to be politically correct because, well, i dont give a **** about being politically correct. i said that because it makes more sense than saying homosexual. homosexual makes it sounds like some genetic term or some sort of different species.

this might sounds really weird or crazy but my friend (yes actually a friend not myself) came up with the idea that it would be interesting to do an experiment where u took a certain amount of babies right when they are born, and set up a control group where u raise normally, and an experimental group where you tell them and convince them that boys like boys and girls like girls, and see what happens. you'd think that some of the boys would be like "well u say i should like him but i actually like her." you would think something like that would happen. i dont see homosexuality as being genetic, i dont think ive heard anyone on here that thinks that.

claustrophobia9
03-23-2006, 05:34 PM
True, to some extent..if you read the Bible, at certain points it says "A man shall not lay with another man" and "Do not spare the rod on your children" so there is no way if you believe in the superior being (God) that you could believe that it is genetic that a person is homosexual... i didnt say genetic, genetic is hair, skin, etc... not natural instincts mixed with an adverse environment. what do i think "makes a person gay"? i think it is a comboniation of the fact that they are here, at a certain time, and the eniroment that they expirience. im not saying the Bible is wrong. but i honestly dont believe there is such thing as sin. i think sin, along with hell and jail and all sorts of other things are great things to be thrown out in the mix, because without them, we would simply have anarhcy. think about it, you're a kid, you kick some other kid because you saw it on tv... you get sent to time-out and learn that it was bad, but what if you never get sent to time out, whats to tell you what to do? I'm not condemning those who do sin either, because i believe that the concept of sin or a similar concept of consequence or desire is what allows a proportional amount of people to be "good" and a proportional amount of people to be "bad". im sorry if none of this makes any sense, in order to reflect on life this way, i pretty much seperate myself from everything i "know".

it is kind of a funny thing though, how the world is so dependant on polarity. think here... no matter how many times activists try to "unify the world" we just seperate into different teams and go at it again. it was gender, it was very heavily (alot less, although it still exists now) race, now it's gay people, soon it could be j-walkers or people with really short toenails.. you know, its an endless cycle where those who are different are singled out but slowly accepted.

back in the bible's time it was actually far better for a family to be procreative because of the fact that they depended on it to survive. i hate to say it but maybe we should put our minds in the times. maybe what is trying to be portrayed is that one should not take part in acts that have a potential to harm his/her family.

while im in this crazy dilusional state that allows me to talk like this, ill leave you with this slice of mind pie:

those who study dreams have found that in one dream a person can have a dream in the amount of time as short as a few seconds over and hour of sleep to nearly a lifetime in a single night. most people have had extremly vidid dreams because of human brain ability. "dream-ologists" often find links in peoples lives (not the bs dream reader stuff, like real links) to those in dreams, who's to say that you arent a dream?

maximus100389
03-23-2006, 05:38 PM
i think of sin as being tied to god, and sinning would be like breaking your relationship with him. so i guess it depends on how much you believe in him.

claustrophobia9
03-23-2006, 05:42 PM
i really just feel it to be a concept that i cant really understand completely, because i dont know how the concept affects others and everyone as a whole, but i think that it needs to be listened to not to keep us out of hell but to keep the concept of hell off of earth. think about what would happen if every1 just started killing off who they dont like and stealing. think of the suffering people would go through, is that "hell"?

maximus100389
03-23-2006, 05:45 PM
well everyone will sin and always will sin so its a pretty big challenge if ur going to try and keep it off of earth. :-P

claustrophobia9
03-23-2006, 05:54 PM
but thats the thing, is every1 doing the same sin? does no one recognize that what they did was wrong and feel sorry. no. some may, but that isnt any where near enough to turn earth into a hell. i dont think homosexuality is anywhere near as big of a sin as people make it out to be, no more than teh pron is. in some cases it may be wrong but maybe others it isnt. i cant say really if it is, but i still think it is a decision that is theirs to make, not mine, i can tell them all they want (if i thought this) that its wrong but id say more than 99% of people have already thought through it enough, you want to save that 1% thats fine, but i dont believe the opression the other 99% go through is worth the 1% to hear that YOU(or sum1 else) another human who is cabable of just as much error as they are, THINKS it is wrong.

xNinja-Dolphinx
03-23-2006, 06:12 PM
The whole problem with what you were saying at first claus was that a sin is a sin, there is no average sin or great sin or little sin. Sinning is sinning and that is that.

maximus100389
03-23-2006, 06:49 PM
well said, ninja.

although i definitly do not agree with homosexuality, i have no problem with a man loving another man. but when it becomes sexual, thats when i think its wrong

durrell
03-23-2006, 07:10 PM
Ehhh..the Bible says you commit adultery when you lust over girls so all guys sin in that sense..you'd be committing adultery as a homosexual thinking about another man..

maximus100389
03-23-2006, 07:24 PM
yeah its all sin, although in my eyes there are worse sins that homosexuality, like murder and rape. although in gods eyes its all the same i believe.

druid
03-23-2006, 07:29 PM
Oh, you fags are going to hell! LOL Okay just kidding!


NO NO NO!!! I shall rule Hell all by myself, thank you VERY much!!!...and I shall put up a 'no admittance' sign!!!


on a serious note....the Christians in the group all believe that we suffer in Original Sin. The whole baptism thing was to relieve that....Since we sinned, just by being born...it can only get worse....

big_daddy_d
03-23-2006, 10:43 PM
I quit...

vikingshadow
03-24-2006, 04:54 AM
I agree with Druid, Dragon, Moe and the others that are thinking along those lines. But I have to throw my two cents in. For those of you who remember me, get ready, this is long! However, this is the only time I'll participate in this conversation, so enjoy!

Oh, and NB Hacker....stop trying to cause problems. We will close and delete this so far civil discussion, and sharp the ban hachets if you wish to continue TRYING to cause problems. Like Dre said, it is being watched carefully.


I've noticed there is a difference in opinion, and it either a. runs along age divisions, or b. is based on personal experience. I wonder if this discussion is just a sign of the times we live in....

1. I have to say, if you're a Christian you have undeniable faith in God and believe that what the Bible says is true. You have to try and live by what the book tells you to do. The path to heaven is STRAIGHT and narrow (pardon the pun!), and if you stray off it, you are sinning. To be a Christian, you can't deny that because that's what God and Jesus said. As such, the Bible says it's wrong to "lay with another man." Point blank and period. As a Christian, you can't condone homosexuality. You "love the sinner and hate the sin" as was said before. He wiped out two entire cities because of it. Sodom and Gommorah.

Addressing the "if God made us, and he's perfect, then how can anything we become be imperfect?" question. Simple. When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they were kicked into a world that had sin in it and Satan ruled over. Sin was allowed to enter us (as was stated, we were born into sin, and by Jesus's crucifixion, we now have a way out of it.) BUT, it doesn't give us permission to break those commandments and laws the Bible stated.

2. Now, off the sermon, as a worldly, very educated man (not just as a teacher, but because I have two different degrees and studied just about everything there is in college to study before determining what I wanted to do with my life from anthropology to zoology, with many stops in between totalling a little over 300 college hours - on top of the constant educational reading and studying and educational television I watch now,) I agree that genetics cannot play a part in this.

In biological terms (the study of life) sex is meant as procreation, a way to continue the species (marriage is something totally different and very few species practice mating with one person for a lifetime - if I remember right, wolves, eagles and humans are the majority.) Darwin calls it survival of the strongest and fittest members of the herd - to grossly shorten up his theories. We HAVE to procreate with females not of our familial herd/clan so that the offspring will be genetically "pleasing" and fall into that "survival" of the blood line that is so important to life.

Now, considering that last looooong paragraph, and that procreation between two males (or two females) cannot possibly result in advancing the herd's genetic diversity or gene pool, consider this. Genetically, and biologically speaking, if homosexuality were genetic, then that would HAVE to be an error because the genetic contribution would cease with the two partners. I mean an error like cancer, or blood disease, or tumors because it's killing of the genetic pool. Boiling it down to scientific terms and getting rid of the "right and wrong" discussion, it comes down to simply a mistake in wiring, and since the person is healthy, it's either a mental error, or a choice. Scientifically speaking, it's a mistake.

3. Now, on to psychology and away from science and Christianity. It is a choice made, and I feel one that was made from some kind of issues the person has earlier in life. Now, I'm not an expert here. I just feel that there has to be some catalyst that comes into play that changes the person's mental makeup to where they like their own gender better than the other. Whether it be trauma-induced, or socially induced, I don't know.

4. Politically, homosexuality is a hot topic right now. With the influx of people who believe they are ok, especially younger generations, the homosexual political base is growing. Right now, I believe it's the Christian lobbyists, the baby boomers and senior citizen groups that are holding them at bay and keeping legislation like gay marriage rights and such from happening. But, these groups are starting to die off.

Church attendance has dropped over the past few years, and what with the "acceptance" of homosexual priests, and church members, I believe they inadvertantly are saying it's ok to be gay, even if their intent is to try and change them. Let me say, I believe younger people don't see their intent, they only see them being accepted and this translates into thinking it's fine and just another lifestyle - which then they see the television shows, see the clothes, see how everyone laughs AT them when they are flaming, not WITH them (this is an important thing not to confuse) and if they run into problems, it's an interesting option for them to get into.

Thing is, these younger people will become voting adults and that translates into particular senators, congressmen, and presidential candidates gaining power. So, and again, pardon the pun, why not tap into that growing power base? I think things are headed down a weird path and in 20-30 years, it'll be interesting to see who has power in this country.

4. Personally, this is my opinion on the matter. I think it's wrong based on all the above and many comments made by several forum members. However, as a Christian I am willing to "love the sinner and hate the sin" as commanded, which for me is VERY difficult and is one of my cross's to bear. My problem with it is simply the fascination of their lifestyle that is so prevalent these days, especially and apparantly by the younger generations as evidenced by the television programs available (those who don't know this, television programs are driven by their main demographic groups, which currently, I believe, is the 18-35 age group.) Television has MANY programs devoted simply to homosexuality. I don't care if it's humorous or tragic, whatever happened to "It's their own business, let's leave it there?"

I HATE it when so much emphasis is put on the homosexual lifestyle and then they turn around and say we should live and let live. If so, why even bring it up? Why should they have the spotlight? The "Kiss don't tell" thing back in Clinton's reign of terror started the whole mess, I believe. If it's ok to come out in the military, then let's come out everywhere! If you want an example, we have a 5 page thread on this topic alone, which got here faster than the support thread, the picture threads and so on in a PAINTBALL forum.....;)

And, to further my tirade, speaking of the flamers, I especially despise "straight haters." They come flaming to me and if I act disgusted or less than amused, they get mad at me? Did I came up to them acting flamingly straight? Did I insult them by saying "Stay away from them, kids! They're fags!?" I have never cut or insulted anyone by calling them "Gay" and that word (even the internet version, ghey,) is not in my vocabulary for that simple fact. I just live my live quietly with my wife and kids, yet I'm the devil? I say, if you want to be gay, great - but don't come to me looking for acceptance. I won't deny you, but I won't accept your lifestyle either, so don't waste time trying to convince me.

tl;dr? Read the bold and choose which you would like to see. I haven't really said anything different than anyone else, but got it out in the open. As some of you have noted, I'm a hard man to convince, and let me warn you, I have 25+ years of solid thinking on this matter (many of those years in schooling and bible study and church) so what you have to say isn't really going to change my mind unless it's something totally new that I haven't heard before. Call it old man's priviledge, if you like!

QAZ123
03-24-2006, 05:22 AM
I still go by what I said earlier but ya know I really don't like seeing it on tv though. Not disgusted with it or anything but I don't care for it. The MTV tv show "Next" where sometime's they use gay's or lesbian's instead I can't hardly watch or hear when they make comment's in referance to sex as it just doesn't seem right.

But those sexual comment's that they are referring to are thing's that are being practiced in heterosexual relationship's more often......

On another note I really can't stand the "man hating" lesbian's as there are a bunch in the city near me. There just rude but for some reason I think they probably have had something traumatic happen in there life to be that way.

And like Vike said this topic hit it's 6th page and ya know what.. I'm just glad to see people posting as this place is sometimes dead anymore.

JB.

druid
03-24-2006, 08:45 AM
Amen, Reverend Dr. Vike...

xNinja-Dolphinx
03-24-2006, 12:37 PM
On another note I really can't stand the "man hating" lesbian's as there are a bunch in the city near me. There just rude but for some reason I think they probably have had something traumatic happen in there life to be that way.
JB. Indiana is just a hating state, we are also the capital of the KKK,lol

QAZ123
03-24-2006, 01:00 PM
Indiana is just a hating state, we are also the capital of the KKK,lol

Actually I was referring to Louisville, KY but yeah Indiana has some of the rudest people. Not hateful people but just rude!

And yeah we have a ton of Neo-facist's organization's around here.

JB.

Paradox313
03-28-2006, 08:04 PM
Personally its fine with me
i dont mind that theres gay people in the world
i mean there just people, they love eachother, big ****ing deal
but when they say "Were here, Were *****, get used to it" i just ****ing lose it

yeah,
your here your ***** WHO ****ING CARES

druid
03-28-2006, 08:24 PM
true durrell...but at the same time He instilled 'free will'...can 'free will' then be described as that genetic defect?

...and the quote to not spare the rod....doesn't play well in our Court System. Try using religion (that quote specificly) as your basis for cracking your kid with a pool cue or other stick-type object, belt or whatever, will get you 2.5-5 years in PA. Although, I agree with corporal punishment, I cannot perport it under the current law. This is not to say that I have never spanked my children...:nunu: