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druid
10-11-2009, 09:43 PM
...big surprise huh?

http://dsc.discovery.com/search/results.html?query=Ardi

Anyone else watch "Discovery Channel: Ardi [Ardipithecus] like I did?
Basically, "Lucy" the oldest hominid skeleten of about 3.6 million years old, fell to a more antiquated fossil skeleton of an additional million years. Featured on the Discovery Channel tonight and in an encore presentation as we speak.
Changes everything scientists once held about human development in that Ardi is the oldest human-like skeleton and almost every aspect except feet...it has an opposed toe like the chimp/ape but all else [except a smaller brain than current humanity]. If you didn't see the program, I urge you to seek it out on the Discovery website

HelpDeskHustler
10-11-2009, 11:11 PM
I'm confused... how was darwin wrong?

ferret15
10-12-2009, 01:34 AM
I'm confused... how was darwin wrong?
:cool:

I also fail to see how Darwin is wrong, there still is more than substantial evidence that Evolution is fact, take your pick and myself or someone can dig up an article in just about any science field to support it.

The whole monkey thing is just .. well a misconception by most people due to an incomplete family tree of our humble ancestry. This just proves there is more than meets the eye and we have much to learn about ourselves so to speak.

marvin-martian
10-12-2009, 04:09 AM
Humanoid =/= human
Neanderthal =/= human


How is this different?

shunut
10-12-2009, 07:45 AM
I'm confused... how was darwin wrong?

Same here.

Ace24
10-12-2009, 08:28 AM
Because Darwin rejected his theory before he died. He himself stated that it was a theory and that it was wrong.

Evolution does not exist. Mutation does. If evolution exists, explain why we haven't evolved further in the past thousand years? Explain why they found a human footprint carbon dating back to the time of the dinosaur since, you know, we evolved from lizards right? Oh wait... no monkeys... :dodgy:

You show me proof that evolution exists and I'll laugh at you and shoot you down with more proof that it doesn't.

druid
10-12-2009, 10:52 AM
Ace is closer than the rest....

Darwin's theory is that we [humans] decended from one common ancestor. Well.....

Darwinistic Scientist have made that assumption to the Ape/simian species because of similarities. Darwin's own drawing of his theory starts with a monkey and ends up as man.

This proves that Humans are far older than ever conceived to be....AND they evolved completely separately from simians.

Question: If we evolved from monkeys/apes..........why are there still monkeys/apes?

Answer: Because we didn't. We evolved PARALLEL to apes/simians.

Just because speies share traits, doesn't make them 'cousins.' Any non-fish swimming animal in the kingdom has webbed feet....ducks, geese, turtles, frogs, lizards, crocks, otters......

That doesn't mean they share a common ancestor...it means they developed tools for their environment, all thoroughout their evolution.

Paradox313
10-12-2009, 12:42 PM
Evolution does not exist. Mutation does.

So where's my Superhuman Cell Regeneration?
I want some adamantium claws dammit.

RSX99
10-12-2009, 01:38 PM
So where's my Superhuman Cell Regeneration?
I want some adamantium claws dammit.

Just watched Xmen Origins: Wolverine... Anywho, you need to find some adamantium first.

shunut
10-12-2009, 04:19 PM
Evolution does not exist. Mutation does

Not true, evolution does exist, maybe not in the sense of us changing from a monkey to human, but it does exist. No person, by definition, can say that we as a human race have not evolved. Also, mutation is a form of evolution.

druid
10-12-2009, 04:47 PM
I agree with Josh. Mutation is often described as something happening quickly..."The virus has mutated into _______ [enter Resident Evil here]..." as opposed to "The shark has not evolved into ______."

Mutations are generally quicker than evolution but humans have [and still do] evolve. It's also possible that they mutate. Look at old Michael Jackson pictures :D

bad joke...sorry....

Paintball Freak
10-12-2009, 05:27 PM
Ahaha... Please! For the sake of humanity, let's not discuss Evolution VS Creation or VS anything for that matter...

"This Happened"
"No, that happened"
"This is fact, that is not"

LOL, I just hate it when my cat turns into a whale...

xsvly-fat
10-12-2009, 05:31 PM
:cool:

I also fail to see how Darwin is wrong, there still is more than substantial evidence that Evolution is fact, take your pick and myself or someone can dig up an article in just about any science field to support it.

The whole monkey thing is just .. well a misconception by most people due to an incomplete family tree of our humble ancestry. This just proves there is more than meets the eye and we have much to learn about ourselves so to speak.

What proof is there of Evolution? When you break the theory down it says we evolved from a rock. If Evolution really did happen then we would see it in the fossil record, we don't it's not real.

There was also more then one "monkey thing" did you know that they only found 40% of Lucy? Her knee bone was found a year before they found the rest of here and it was 2 miles away and 210 feet below where they found the other bones. What about Nebraska Man? The bones they found of him was just a pig tooth. Other Evolutionist have taken bones from humans and apes and mixed them together to make an ape human.
Because Darwin rejected his theory before he died. He himself stated that it was a theory and that it was wrong.

Evolution does not exist. Mutation does. If evolution exists, explain why we haven't evolved further in the past thousand years? Explain why they found a human footprint carbon dating back to the time of the dinosaur since, you know, we evolved from lizards right? Oh wait... no monkeys... :dodgy:

You show me proof that evolution exists and I'll laugh at you and shoot you down with more proof that it doesn't.

QFT.

DFSniper
10-12-2009, 05:39 PM
Ahaha... Please! For the sake of humanity, let's not discuss Evolution VS Creation or VS anything for that matter...

"This Happened"
"No, that happened"
"This is fact, that is not"

LOL, I just hate it when my cat turns into a whale...

ok. i'll just make your cat disappear. *grabs box* [insert Schroedinger's Cat joke]

TheDarkShadow
10-12-2009, 06:32 PM
ok ace if you say there is no evolution then how do you explain humans becoming much tall than they used to be (in general)

ferret15
10-12-2009, 07:15 PM
Evolution does not exist. Mutation does.

You must understand what Natural Selection is before you try to debunk it, this link may not be "credible" but i feel it gives you a good run down full of the proper citations that can be followed up if you so wish to. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

Evolution's special relationship with Mutations is called Natural selection. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt5VHajcirk) (video linked), This process over several generations process say more brown hair rabbits than white hair rabbits in a specific climate ( lets say a place with lots of dirt and trees and bushes). Why there would be more brown than white rabbits? Predators easily spot the white rabbit and the brown one is better capable to evade an attack due to better camouflage. This gives more opportunity for the brown rabbits to reproduce and the population to better adapt. In a period of billions of years this would give rise to mush larger changes and greater variety. Don't forget DNA is the blue print for ALL living organisms that we know of.


You show me proof that evolution exists and I'll laugh at you and shoot you down with more proof that it doesn't.
You have yet to disprove evolution. Evolution is not species that give birth to other species ect. but i would love to hear any of your arguments that can be backed from more than opinion.

oh: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/03/0308_060308_evolution_2.html
Ace is closer than the rest....

Darwin's theory is that we [humans] decended from one common ancestor. Well.....

Darwinistic Scientist have made that assumption to the Ape/simian species because of similarities. Darwin's own drawing of his theory starts with a monkey and ends up as man.

This proves that Humans are far older than ever conceived to be....AND they evolved completely separately from simians.

Question: If we evolved from monkeys/apes..........why are there still monkeys/apes?

Answer: Because we didn't. We evolved PARALLEL to apes/simians.

Just because speies share traits, doesn't make them 'cousins.' Any non-fish swimming animal in the kingdom has webbed feet....ducks, geese, turtles, frogs, lizards, crocks, otters......

That doesn't mean they share a common ancestor...it means they developed tools for their environment, all thoroughout their evolution.

Ahaha... Please! For the sake of humanity, let's not discuss Evolution VS Creation or VS anything for that matter...

please your religion for a different thread and lets keep this thread constructive.
This has nothing to do with your dogmatic view its about knowledge. In fact i don't blame Christianity to sling so much propaganda against science. If you take the bible literally evolution clearly points out there was never 1 man and 1 women that had children that would further lay with each other to populate the world. If you wish to believe that you surely won't be happy with science.


What proof is there of Evolution

Sometimes the best things in life have always been there

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/151/340086354_33dbed008b.jpg

http://www.doggydayschool.com/images/dog_collage.jpg

http://notexactlyrocketscience.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/nwhi_-_french_frigate_shoals_reef_-_many_fish.jpg

paintballkid0206
10-12-2009, 07:36 PM
very interesting conversation. i saw commercials for that discovery channel program but never got around to seeing it. i'm wishing i was through with high school right about now so i could understand and get in on the subject. lol. but ill just watch. i believe in creation, with slight evolution since the species were created. just my 2 cents. im done. lol

ferret15
10-12-2009, 07:42 PM
i'm wishing i was through with high school right about now so i could understand and get in on the subject.

you no longer have to wish, you can do with lots of information available to the public for free. either way there will be someone you know that is waiting and will probably be very excited to help you learn more on this topic.

paintballkid0206
10-12-2009, 07:48 PM
yes, but i dont even have the motivation to finish my homework right now, let alone research stuff like this. lol. i might jump in the topic later, if its still open

xsvly-fat
10-12-2009, 08:16 PM
The dogs are breeded differently. Say you take a male and female dog and they each have a gene for thicker coats. This gene well go to the offsprings and he will have a thicker coat. Then say short hair dogs and long hair dogs move to a place that's very cold. The short hair dogs will die. I'm gonna have to look into butterflys more haha.

Another thing that would make it impossible for us to just evolve from apes is that we have a vertebrate that apes don't have. Say we did evolve from apes, while we were growing this vertebrate we would be in an extreme amount of pain and probably couldn't move. Natural selection would simply take us out. I gotta go so I'll look more into this later.

ferret15
10-12-2009, 08:29 PM
Natural selection would simply take us out. I gotta go so I'll look more into this later.

the pictures are there to illustrate variety and if you believe in the small change then you believe in the large change. The dogs that have experience mutation to create a new breed. Now to comprehend the large change is something that is very hard to comprehend and often times i find myself just trying to comprehend even a few thousand years let alone a few million and even this is just a small amount of time for evolution.

We didn't come from the apes and chimps you see today they are to be simply put they are closer relatives to us than a spider. If you take retro-virus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrovirus) that are encoded in our very own DNA and it just so happens that this would occur at random with no common link? Its far more likely that the hundreds of retro virus that are found at the exact same places in their DNA as our own is that a common ancestor developed this mutation and since our current line of "apes" our still around we are the benefactor of this biological evidence.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071114121359.htm

RSX99
10-13-2009, 05:12 AM
I would like to state that I am not flaming anyone in these quotes. I am merely stating my opinions.

Evolution does not exist. Mutation does.
You show me proof that evolution exists and I'll laugh at you and shoot you down with more proof that it doesn't.

You have yet to prove that evolution doesn't exist. I do believe mutation takes place and I also believe that cancer may be a form of human mutation/evolution.

Other Evolutionist have taken bones from humans and apes and mixed them together to make an ape human.

Bold statement border lining ignorance. Again refer to my initial statement in this post.

druid
10-13-2009, 10:31 AM
very interesting conversation. i saw commercials for that discovery channel program but never got around to seeing it. i'm wishing i was through with high school right about now so i could understand and get in on the subject. lol. but ill just watch. i believe in creation, with slight evolution since the species were created. just my 2 cents. im done. lol

I read what you posted after this ^^ one but only quoted this one in the interest of saving space...

I submit that it's because your current studies are "boring."........lol.

There's nothing "studious' about watching the History or Discovery Channels. Grab a bag of popcorn and a Dew and veg out.

...and like you, I was raised in religion...a common one...but crave scientific discovery as much as the next guy. That's typical to human nature and this particular topic pits one against the other. Will one disprove the other? not likely. One cannot provide proof, where another uses their version of proof to try and dispell faith.
---------------

To those trying the science vs religion flame war...

Historical discovery has it's ups and downs. One might be trying to find proof to upset the religious community....and the religious, having their own 'science division' so to speak....trying to prove thier contentions.

I'll not debate the "vs religious" implications because that is not the intent of this thread I started.

The intent is that scientists found a 4.6 million year old [partial] skeleton of about 110 pieces. Except for it's appopsed toe, it appears to be [in all other aspects] human. The opening line where I said "Darwin was wrong" means that once again, science has been wrong in their assumptions about human existance...that Darwin's theory of evolution [that we came from a single source] is still unproven. nothing more, nothing less.

xsvly-fat
10-13-2009, 11:37 AM
the pictures are there to illustrate variety and if you believe in the small change then you believe in the large change. The dogs that have experience mutation to create a new breed. Now to comprehend the large change is something that is very hard to comprehend and often times i find myself just trying to comprehend even a few thousand years let alone a few million and even this is just a small amount of time for evolution.

We didn't come from the apes and chimps you see today they are to be simply put they are closer relatives to us than a spider. If you take retro-virus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrovirus) that are encoded in our very own DNA and it just so happens that this would occur at random with no common link? Its far more likely that the hundreds of retro virus that are found at the exact same places in their DNA as our own is that a common ancestor developed this mutation and since our current line of "apes" our still around we are the benefactor of this biological evidence.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071114121359.htm

1. Just because you believe in small change doesn't mean you have to believe in big change. We're all humans that have small changes (skin color, hair, facial features, ect.). Micro evolution has millions of facts. But we have never seen macro evolution. It can not happen. Adaptations happen from loosing DNA. NEVER in history has anyone ever seen DNA get added to anything and no one can creat it.

2. By saying that dogs have experienced mutation to change breads must mean that some dogs are of higher species then other dogs because there is no such thing as a good mutation (99% of mutations kill the organism).

3. If you think we didn't come from apes then where do you think we come from?

You have yet to prove that evolution doesn't exist. I do believe mutation takes place and I also believe that cancer may be a form of human mutation/evolution.

Bold statement border lining ignorance. Again refer to my initial statement in this post.

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Sciences/Lifescience/PhysicalAnthropology/EvolutionFact/ApeMen/ApeMen.htm

It's called Pitdown man. They also drew a picture of what Nebraska Man looked like based on a tooth that they found.

paintballkid0206
10-13-2009, 04:11 PM
I read what you posted after this ^^ one but only quoted this one in the interest of saving space...

I submit that it's because your current studies are "boring."........lol.

There's nothing "studious' about watching the History or Discovery Channels. Grab a bag of popcorn and a Dew and veg out.

...and like you, I was raised in religion...a common one...but crave scientific discovery as much as the next guy. That's typical to human nature and this particular topic pits one against the other. Will one disprove the other? not likely. One cannot provide proof, where another uses their version of proof to try and dispell faith.

yes, some of my studies are very boring. and i love the history and discovery channels, but im so used to being up and about and out of the house, that its hard for me to "veg out" and just watch tv. and i wasnt saying i wouldnt watch those channels, i was sayin how i prolly wont do online research and such. i dont really have the time.

ferret15
10-13-2009, 05:46 PM
1. Just because you believe in small change doesn't mean you have to believe in big change. We're all humans that have small changes (skin color, hair, facial features, ect.). Micro evolution has millions of facts. But we have never seen macro evolution. It can not happen. Adaptations happen from loosing DNA. NEVER in history has anyone ever seen DNA get added to anything and no one can creat it.



funny thing this isn't about DNA being added or subtracted. Its about the changes in DNA and survival of species.

here is one example of your micro evolution relating to humans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrhYLvNeQd4



2. By saying that dogs have experienced mutation to change breads must mean that some dogs are of higher species then other dogs because there is no such thing as a good mutation (99% of mutations kill the organism).


mutations- decent vid: semi-unappropriated if your mom is over your shoulder and your 13 in 1 part. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuO1b-kCHWY


3. If you think we didn't come from apes then where do you think we come from?


It's called Pitdown man. They also drew a picture of what Nebraska Man looked like based on a tooth that they found.

What is seems to be mis understood is that we are not descendants of the current great apes but rather we are one group of them. There was a common descendant that also spawned the ancestor linage to chimpanzees and the orangutan, just like there was a common ancestor that spawned all mammals.

xsvly-fat
10-13-2009, 08:08 PM
funny thing this isn't about DNA being added or subtracted. Its about the changes in DNA and survival of species.

here is one example of your micro evolution relating to humans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrhYLvNeQd4

How can you call that en example? Do we have any proof of that? How could that even happen?

mutations- decent vid: semi-unappropriated if your mom is over your shoulder and your 13 in 1 part. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuO1b-kCHWY


I'm 37 and my mom didn't like any of it :dodgy:

That wasn't (in my opinion) proof. He didn't give any examples. What is one example of a good mutation?
What is seems to be mis understood is that we are not descendants of the current great apes but rather we are one group of them. There was a common descendant that also spawned the ancestor linage to chimpanzees and the orangutan, just like there was a common ancestor that spawned all mammals.

Why doesn't this come up in the fossil record though? You would have had to add DNA in there at some point of time which has never happened

druid
10-13-2009, 09:11 PM
http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Sciences/Lifescience/PhysicalAnthropology/EvolutionFact/GeneticMutation/GeneticMutation.htm

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070913113824AAhcFGn

Aw Hell...click this link and then some others....

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=examples+of+positive+mutations&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

ferret15
10-13-2009, 09:45 PM
I'm 37 and my mom didn't like any of it :dodgy:

That wasn't (in my opinion) proof. He didn't give any examples. What is one example of a good mutation?



the warning was actually for someone like paintballkid who has people around that may care what he is looking at.

the video wasn't about examples it was an overview to further explain mutations and possibly help you refine your argument. As druid just pulled up from a simple google search several examples of good mutations.

Also nebraska man (http://www.conservapedia.com/Nebraska_man)is blown way out of proportion and if your going to count an Artist interpenetration of anything as fact, we need to have a talk. As for why anyone would hold a corrected misconception such as that occurred over 80 years ago is foolish, For example small pox was still killing people and in this day and age our science has eradicated that disease except for a few vials keep in highly secure locations.

xsvly-fat
10-15-2009, 11:12 AM
The first link said the exact opposite...

I was just pointing somthing out. Why would somebody draw something based on a tooth? Every missing link that scientist have come up with turned out to be a fraud yet people still believe its true. There is no way evolution can happen. Scientist can't make life in a lab but people believe that it happened on its own and that we came from nothing? I can't explain God or how he got there or anything like that but it makes alot more sense then coming from nothing.

ferret15
10-15-2009, 11:30 AM
The first link said the exact opposite...

I was just pointing somthing out. Why would somebody draw something based on a tooth? Every missing link that scientist have come up with turned out to be a fraud yet people still believe its true. There is no way evolution can happen. Scientist can't make life in a lab but people believe that it happened on its own and that we came from nothing? I can't explain God or how he got there or anything like that but it makes alot more sense then coming from nothing.

an artist in france, iirc, drew that and it blew up from there.

Your right nobody can explain the origins and it makes just as much sense to say that nothing exploded into everything as to say a Omnipresent, Omniscient, All Powerful Entity that has always existed created what currently understand as "everything". This is my opinion and means nothing to even myself because it can't be backed. This was a discussion about the theory of Evolution and how things became what they are to today not where they came from. I suppose though anybody that views the earth and universe as only some 6000 odd years young then maybe this theory doesn't agree with your taste. This is turning into a religious debate so i will leave here and i would love

RED: I would love a link or re-post of this showing the refuted evidence if you may.

BLUE: Actually thats a bold statement. I may refute god because this is little evidence to otherwise prove but i can say there is NO gods because in infinite universe/multiverse anything can happen

GREEN: It never hurts to try and after only 30 odd years of modern science and couple hundred years of developing the tools to get to modern science out of thousands of years of "modern" man i wouldn't expect that kind of technology. We are still trying to get to mars and there is still starving people in the world. This is defiantly a great time to live in but it is only the beginning of a far greater one.

xsvly-fat
10-15-2009, 12:30 PM
Didn't know about the French artist. I can't (and I don't think anyone can) explain the orgin of life. And just so you know, I'm not a crazy Christian or anything like that who goes door to door and all that stuff. I do believe in a God though. Just thought I'd clear that up haha.

Red: http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Sciences/Lifescience/PhysicalAnthropology/EvolutionFact/ApeMen/ApeMen.htm

Green:
I heard they did try to remake life but they didn't get what they wanted and they had to take oxygen or light out. I wasn't really paying attention.

I'm done too.

ferret15
10-15-2009, 01:19 PM
Didn't know about the French artist. I can't (and I don't think anyone can) explain the orgin of life. And just so you know, I'm not a crazy Christian or anything like that who goes door to door and all that stuff. I do believe in a God though. Just thought I'd clear that up haha.


You didn't insult me one bit so we are still :cool: and most young people i've found aren't crazy Christians which.

Green:whether or not we choose to accept this or that can you imagine a world with out scientific questioning. It truly has brought us to this point in time for better or worse, I like to think better. So what humans haven't created life out of our own mix of primordial Ooze but imagine what new technology will be discovered when that does happens. Imagine the day humans can spread out through galaxy where we right now can only take pictures of what appears specs. Those our the kind of things i would rather see humans accomplish because complacency doesn't agree with my stomach.