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druid
03-15-2006, 12:51 PM
Since there has been an up-cropping of people's admissions to owning/using silencers...I thought I'd post this so it can be linked to those who ask later.




CLICK ME FOR THE ACTUAL ATF DOCUMENT REGARDING THE LEGALITY OF PAINTBALL SILENCERS!!! (http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/revrule/rules/atf_ruling2005-4.pdf)





I found this posted on another forum. The poster's and originating site's name, are included. I have added a few comments below the article.

Paintball Silencers
December 27, 2004
Quoted from specialopspaintball.com

Not long after the invention of the direct-feed paintball gun, players
began to tinker with the idea of making their paintguns quieter. Paintball
silencers have been around almost as long as hoppers.

In the mid-1980s, Sheridan released a paintball long gun that just
begged to be turned into a "sniper" rifle. Almost every Sheridan rifle you
saw carried a homemade silencer on the end of its barrel. All paintguns,
in those days, were pumps. Pumps, unlike semi-auto paintball guns,
don't have as much machine noise with each shot and this makes a
silenced paintball gun especially quiet. As we were fond of saying in those
days, paintball silencers sounded "like a gopher farting."

Commercial paintball silencers flooded the market, though they weren't a
whole lot better than the homemade ones. They began appearing in
magazine photos and on store shelves. Basically, a paintball silencer was
a large tubular chamber that slid over the end of the paintball gun's
barrel. The inside of the chamber was usually a porous material that
allowed the paintball gun's gas to dissipate into the chamber before
"popping" into the environment. Inside the silencer's chamber,
manufacturers usually packed loose material such as insulation or brillo
pads to further help deaden the sound.

Most of the "pop" that a paintball gun makes is the result of the paintball
leaving the barrel with a burst of gas with sound behind it. The paintball
silencer creates an intermediate airspace that traps much of the gas and
sound while leaving the paintball to exit the barrel untouched.

But the glory days of paintball silencers were numbered. Firearm silencers
are a controlled device under federal law. The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) regulates the ownership and manufacture of
a number of firearm devices including machine guns and sound
suppressors (otherwise known as "silencers.") In the early 1990s, the ATF
ran tests and decided that paintball silencers could be used to quiet a
true firearm and they notified all manufacturers of paintball silencers that
they were in violation of federal law. The reach of big brother was fast
and final. All paintball silencers disappeared from the market.

Currently, the best option for a paintball sniper is to buy the quietest
barrel possible and marry it to the quietest paintgun possible. The
carbon-fiber barrels manufactured by Stiffi are just about the quietest
thing out there. Attached to a DM4, they make a combo that's no louder
than the silenced pumps of the old days before the ATF came a knocking.

To own a paintball gun silencer legally, you must live in one of the states
that allow private ownership of sound suppressors. If so, you can
purchase a silencer (paintball or firearm,) from a licensed firearms dealer
(if such a thing were actually manufactured.) Then, you would have to get
the signature of your local law enforcement officer on a form that
requires a two-hundred dollar tax stamp. After waiting between two and
six months, if you're not a felon, the transfer of your paintball silencer
would come through and you could go back to your dealer and pick it up.

Since the whole system is really hard, really expensive and takes a really
long time, legal paintball silencers are almost never seen.

As a side note, Special Ops Paintball is a Class II Firearms manufacturer
and dealer so, if you want a paintball silencer bad enough, we can make
you one and have it transferred to you. Again, it'll cost you an extra $200
on top of the cost of the suppressor and you'll have to wait a few months
for the transfer, but it's possible.

Otherwise, you're left using one of the many "fake" paintball silencers
(which don't work to deaden sound), or you can make your own and be
illegal. If you buy a "fake" paintball silencer and it DOES actually dampen
the sound of your paintball gun, it's probably illegal, both for the
manufacturer and for you. Every year, a few paintball tinkerers come out
with illegal paintball silencers and the ATF shuts them down. Even if the
manufacturer claims their paintball silencer is "legal" that doesn't mean
it's true. Ask to see their letter from the ATF approving their design.
Often, they'll just blow the question off. To our knowledge, the ATF hasn't
approved of any paintball silencer designs as of this writing. If you
possess an illegal silencer, and you're caught with it by your local law
enforcement, it probably won't matter that the manufacturer led you to
believe it was legal. You'll still be in a lot of trouble.

And, the same goes for homemade paintball silencers. If you possess a
silencer or even silencer parts, you are probably committing a federal
felony. This is a very, very big punishment for something that shouldn't
be a crime at all.

We have never heard of someone being prosecuted for owning an illegal
paintball silencer, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Many take
the chance, but it's probably not worth it (unless you're a Class II
manufacturer and the you can own all the paintball silencers you want.
Sweeeet!)

The bummer is that paintball silencers work great and they make the
game much more fun. With a good paintball silencer, a sniper can take
close shots and still not give away his position. Silencers are long and a
little awkward, but they give great advantage to that long-ball, one-shot
sniper.

Hopefully, someday soon, someone will figure it out with the ATF so that
paintball fields will once again resonate with the brrrp! of gophers
<breaking wind>.


Edited by nauzerlvr - 09 March 2006 at 3:51pm

druid's comments -

As the article states, silencers are NOT illegal in the US...they are controlled. This means that you can legally own and use one if you follow the proper procedure.
If you plan on making one, you need to contact the ATF and complete the proper forms. You have to provide the plans and materials used in the construction of the silencer. There is a tax you have to pay and the last time I heard, it was around $200...could be more by now. They can approve or deny the construction for any or no reason at all.
Now...it's happened twice in the last two weeks....so far....someone posts that they are using a silencer. Let me be blunt...you are on a public and family oriented forum. Some of us could be law enforcement - I know of at least one :whistling: ...you need to understand that is a LE's job to report illegal activities to the proper jurisdiction...in this particular case, the ATF. It's not a matter of 'hating-on'; it's not a power-trip; it's not that the LE's trying to be a prick...it's obligation under the swearing-in process and thus, under the law, that gets it reported.

If you build a silencer outside the parameters stated above, you do so at your own risk but be fore-warned...if you are reported, you risk the possibility of getting your door kicked in on some lonely, dark night...putting your family members (even the family pets) in grave danger. This is not the way to go. Before you construct it, fill out the paperwork and get it done right.

...and yes...the article mentioned the "S" word....:D

Here is an additional link providing information...CLICK ME! (http://www.corin.com/bill/paintball/silencer.html)

Here is a product you might want to consider...CLICK ME for a neat barrel (http://www.endgameinc.com/Paintball-Products/Compression-Barrels.asp)

DFSniper
03-15-2006, 01:09 PM
on-the-spot thinking: so basically, a paintball silencer could become legal if there was no way to mount it on an actual firearm? i know that most barrels have different outer diameters, but if there was a silencer designed specifically for that barrel OD and was too big to fit on a rifle barrel (havent seen one of those in two years *cringe*, but im pretty sure theyre too small), then it would be ok to mass manufacture it, right? or what if there was a suppressor with marker-specific threading on it, so it couldnt be used on a firearm? the only problem i could see the extent of the individual state's "sound suppressor" law. do they mean all suppressors, or just firearm suppressors?

DRAGON
03-15-2006, 01:23 PM
I used to use one in the 80's on my pump PMI 68 Magnum. As the guy stated, eveybody had them then. I see them on the field that I use all the time and no one even gives them a second glance. All that article says to me is this is just another way for the BATF to make money using scare tactics like labeling it a federal crime. Using one an an actual firearm it would prolly blow it to pieces the first shot since they're made of PCV plastic. As far as silencers go for an actual firearm, I could make one out of a plastic 2 litre Coke bottle or a motorcycle muffler. I think the BATF should charge a $200 deposit on Coke bottles and motorcycle mufflers as well lol. Sry......just a lil DRAGON satire there hee hee -

Bottom line though, they are illegal - :cool:

DFSniper
03-15-2006, 01:39 PM
lol, reminds me of a Tom Clancy book where they threw the Russian-made silencers away after 10 shots because they knew they werent going to be good anymore.

druid
03-15-2006, 10:07 PM
Dragon...lol, I totally agree.
DFSniper...the way I understand it, the ATF ran tests on mass-produced silencers and determined that they work on firearms. The massed produced silencers would have had to be constructed to fit a wide variety of outside barrel diameters, so your assertion that a silencer would be indigenous to one marker is spoken in vain. The only way to know for sure is to create the plans, add the materials list and provide the proper paperwork and pay the fee. If you are approved, you would receive some sort of approval letter or permit. I'd say photocopy the original, laminate the copy and keep it in you wallet at all times...and lock the original in some sort of fireproof safe. Dragon made the comment about 2-liter bottles....simply electrical taping the bottle onto the muzzle works so I would think that your 'indigenous design' would not be legal.

bamf-hacker
03-16-2006, 05:12 AM
ok call me ignorant, but why would you even need something to completely silence a paintball gun?

We are talking paintball right, those bright round(ish) balls of paint coming out of guns. You know the ones that are not perfect spheres so they are not 100% accurate anyway. :) (my sarcasm for the day)

If you want to be stealthy, wear clothes for the environment and choose your shots carefully. Right?

HacKeR

Recon by Fire
03-16-2006, 05:38 PM
That article is out of date. There are some silencers for paintball that do not fall under the BATF restrictions. One is that the silencer must be permamently afixed to the the barrel and the barrel is also permamently afixed to the marker. Wouldn't that suck!? LOL I forget about just a perm-afixed silnecer-barrel combination though.

Hob Hayward
03-16-2006, 06:04 PM
Hmm that'd work, I'd have thought that you'd see some scenrario marker packages in which the barrel was permanently affixed with a permently affixed silencer... I suppose you could do somthing like jbweld a barrel on with a silencer... Just gotta make sure you've got an easily cleaned marker.

druid
03-16-2006, 09:27 PM
HacKeR:
ok call me ignorant, but why would you even need something to completely silence a paintball gun?
Because scenario/rec/woodsballers try the sniper role. It's practicality in speedball is obviously non-existant.

We are talking paintball right, those bright round(ish) balls of paint coming out of guns. You know the ones that are not perfect spheres so they are not 100% accurate anyway. (my sarcasm for the day)

and a silencer doesn't silence the projectile...it muffles the gas esplosion eminating fromthe barrel...behind the projectile. Since the principals are the same (even though the materials are different), the theory is still sound (my sarcasm)
If you want to be stealthy, wear clothes for the environment and choose your shots carefully. Right?
and yet people still do it the 'wrong way'...breaking the law

Recon:
That article is out of date. There are some silencers for paintball that do not fall under the BATF restrictions. One is that the silencer must be permamently afixed to the the barrel and the barrel is also permamently afixed to the marker. Wouldn't that suck!? LOL I forget about just a perm-afixed silnecer-barrel combination though.
This is true but it's not in the spirit of the article...because the average 'know-it-all' that makes a supressor isn't making the 'permanently mounted unit-to barrel; perminantly mounted barrel-to-marker rendition of the supressor..

Since I don't think too many people are going to perminantly mount a barrel to a marker...then the supressor to the barrel, it's riddiculous to even suggest it...some one may----but the percentage of players is so low it's not even worth mentioning.

Look guys, the tendency is that these kids make a silencer out of normal, house-hold items. They put them on in the field and use them, show them off in a 'show n tell' mentality...then take them off and store them when they are done for the day. Some other kid usually offers to pay money to have one built for them as well...This is illegal, no matter what 'spin' you put on it. The practice should be avoided at all costs...

DexGtr
03-17-2006, 09:44 AM
just leave them alone and let them make one......then REPORT them...haha that would be fun. :pwnd:

druid
03-19-2006, 02:39 AM
no...that would be unethical

DFSniper
03-19-2006, 08:39 AM
now that i think about it (ok, was babysitting and had nothing better to do yesterday), the 32* Whisper barrels are really quiet. i had forgotten all about those. i forget how quiet mine is because the clicking of the e-frame and sliding of the bolt makes all the noise!

druid
03-19-2006, 03:42 PM
yep...and as i understand it, wrapping a plush/terrycloth towel around a highly ported barrel isn't illegal...so...

new link added at top.....check it out

Ok.....here's another update....I added it to the first post so it doesn't get lost....

CLICK ME FOR THE ACTUAL ATF DOCUMENT REGARDING THE LEGALITY OF PAINTBALL SILENCERS!!! (http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/revrule/rules/atf_ruling2005-4.pdf)
.
.
.

Eaglelox
03-22-2006, 06:24 AM
i made one in the 80s also. never used it. it ruined your accuracy. they had to be about 30 feet away to make a for sure kill. the most you could get off back then was 2-3 shots a second so you had to make your shots count. it was a fun idea but was useless the way we played.
there was a marker in the 80s that was not a pump. tippman SMG 62 cal. it had 4 five round striper clips. it held 20 bals at a time and shot a legal 320 FPS. just to inform.

druid
04-21-2006, 09:51 PM
boing

thechubbss12
04-22-2006, 06:02 AM
? why?

druid
04-22-2006, 12:18 PM
so it doesn't get lost

druid
05-14-2006, 08:41 PM
^
^^
^^^
^
^

timbertiger20
05-19-2006, 01:06 AM
I'm curious..........it says that a paintball silencer permanently affixed to a barrel but not secured to the gun could be used on a real gun..........anyone think they had the cajones to try and shoot led out of an aluminum barrel? I would imagine to get velocity out of a bullet it would have to be a very snug fit and with pressures to propel the round your looking at 80,000 +PSI......and you thought 4500 PSI in a tank was scary! I deem it theoretically impossible and a challenge to Myth Busters!

druid
05-19-2006, 01:31 AM
wrong. Your theory is flawed. The 9mm Parabellum is actuallu .381 caliber. The smallest standard paintball barrel bore fora .68 caliber paintball is what - .681 to .685? That's just under twice the diameter of the 9mm bullet so there would be no contact between the bullet and the bore (unless it bounces in there).
Unless the bullet's the same/larger than the bore diameter your challenge is busted before it hit the drawing board.
You tend to forget firearm bullets go as low as .17 cal. so it's entirely likely that the ATF can "jerry-rig" it to work. If they can, we can...thus making it illegal.

This is a non-debatable subject. I suggest you leave it that way.

Frat
05-19-2006, 01:41 AM
This is a good thread and people need to realize that the ATF does not have a sense of humor and a felony is a felony. Federal charges in a Federal court lead to real prison time. Since I have gotten back into this sport I have been suprised by the number of guns I have seen for sale with supressors as part of the package. It's not worth it to even mess with it.

timbertiger20
05-19-2006, 09:01 AM
SO what your saying is the silencer permenently affixed to the barrel of a paintball marker is being used to slip over another barrel? From what I've read there concern is that the barrel itself could be used to fire a projectile in other fashions.

Frat not to worry buddy......since I am a LEO of the state of Idaho......I have my local ATF's Card in my wallet, and I am registered for Class 3 weapons due to my LE status!

I'll find out exactly what their opinion is and how they could possibly use a paintball silencer and use it on another weapon. The only thing I can think of is they're using it as a barrel sleeve......in which case to be effective........I would think it would have to be a fairly tight fit

Frat
05-19-2006, 09:51 AM
Frat not to worry buddy......since I am a LEO of the state of Idaho......I have my local ATF's Card in my wallet, and I am registered for Class 3 weapons due to my LE status!

Cool you can get your dept to fund toys. I am a Title 2 (class 3) owner. The ATFs stance if it only works once it still works. They confiscated a bunch of machinegune parts kits that had been saw cut instead of torch cut. If I remember correctly and I kid you not the either duct taped or wired the receiver back together and fired it. I don't see how it could have fired more than once but it did and the kits were declared illegal machine guns and were confiscated. I agree with them that the kits were improperly demilled but I use the method of testing for the point. If you could slipped the paintball gun barrel with a silence permanently attached over the barrrel of a 22 or say an Uzi or Tech nine granted the last two would be totally unwieldy and it functioned just once it would still have functioned. BTW your state is beautifull to bad the yuppie crowd has found it.

druid
05-19-2006, 09:54 AM
timber...I think the point of this thread is this...

While silencers aren't illegal...they are a controlled device. The ATF states that if it can be converted to 'diminish the report of a firearm discharge' it meets their definition of silencer...to which, you need to submit the plans, coupled with the request and fee to receive their approval letter (if they choose to grant it).

The spirit of this thread is not to discourage a person from making one, it's a plea (and a warning) to make sure they do it properly.

timbertiger20
05-19-2006, 02:58 PM
Hmmm.....so by what you told me a cloth or what not around the porting would also be illegal.......if it worked? Hmmm..........Yeah hard to get the department to fund a paintball gun silencer job! If I could get them to fund the paintball guns I'd be in good shape. You know what's really odd......Police Officers in this state can have their gun permits and are allowed to carry class 3 equipped weapons and such........yet there is no ID of any type distinguishing us from any other moron on the street. Also well I'm at it....how would they no whether or not a silencer on a paintball gun is a mock silencer or not. I mean with 30-40 of them on our field at any one time......would they chase after the quietest marker.......LOL....

oldnewb
05-19-2006, 04:33 PM
Anyone know if there are any laws regarding silencers in Canada? Since getting back into paintball, I haven't seen any silencers for sale here (there used to be plenty back in the pumpgun day, but it might just be that almost all paintball gear is intended for a US market... commercially made silencers wouldn't have enough of a market up here to make enough money).

Also, anyone given any thought to the fact that the Smart Parts SP-8 Tactical marker has an option for an extended barrel kit with a built-in silencer? This is probably close to the idea that was being discussed earlier about having a one-piece barrel-silencer that could circumvent the laws regarding silencers, since there's no way it could be retrofitted to a firearm.

Lastly, is it even POSSIBLE to trick out a spyder (mine's one of the new MR-1 milsim style Spyders) for the silent sniper role, or am I just better off sticking with the adrenaline junkie spray-and-pray?

timbertiger20
05-19-2006, 06:04 PM
Again SP8 has a mock silencer and the barrel will still come right off. I've never tried a silencer on a paintball marker but EagleLox experimented with it. It must be possible to make them very quiet but........no idea on Canadian laws!

big_daddy_d
05-19-2006, 06:11 PM
Thought this thread got locked :dodgy:

druid
05-19-2006, 07:04 PM
Hmmm.....so by what you told me a cloth or what not around the porting would also be illegal.......if it worked?
As a LEO, you should know better. Attempting to circumvent the law...no matter how riddiculous you think it may be, puts no distinction between you and the "other moron on the street" that you elude to just below this response. Click and read the links I provided in the initial post. Click the actual ATF letter, it explains the properties that constitute a silencer under their definition.
Hmmm..........Yeah hard to get the department to fund a paintball gun silencer job! If I could get them to fund the paintball guns I'd be in good shape. You know what's really odd......Police Officers in this state can have their gun permits and are allowed to carry class 3 equipped weapons and such........yet there is no ID of any type distinguishing us from any other moron on the street. I find it incredulous that you have noID system. Here (and in most states) you are issued an "Act" card upon the completion of the Academy and the department issues one with your shield....hrm...suspicious....Also well I'm at it....how would they no whether or not a silencer on a paintball gun is a mock silencer or not. I mean with 30-40 of them on our field at any one time......would they chase after the quietest marker.......LOL....If they intended to ever do their job, yes...or at the very least, inform the Detective Unit. It's not up to us to determine what laws we enforce and which we "let slip by"...that's up to the DA of the County/jurisdiction...or in this case, State's Attorney General and Federal Prosecutors...and you know that. If you are going to be biased towards an illegal act because it's a portion of the thing you participate in, it's time to turn in your shield.[/quote]

[quote=oldnewb]Anyone know if there are any laws regarding silencers in Canada? Since getting back into paintball, I haven't seen any silencers for sale here (there used to be plenty back in the pumpgun day, but it might just be that almost all paintball gear is intended for a US market... commercially made silencers wouldn't have enough of a market up here to make enough money). I'd suggest you contact the Local Police or RCMP or Provincial Authority for that answer.

Also, anyone given any thought to the fact that the Smart Parts SP-8 Tactical marker has an option for an extended barrel kit with a built-in silencer? This is probably close to the idea that was being discussed earlier about having a one-piece barrel-silencer that could circumvent the laws regarding silencers, since there's no way it could be retrofitted to a firearm. For now...until the ATF gets a hold of one and successfully makes it work...then that'll stop too. As for the latter remark, you know as well as the rest of us..."where there's a will, there's a way."

Lastly, is it even POSSIBLE to trick out a spyder (mine's one of the new MR-1 milsim style Spyders) for the silent sniper role, or am I just better off sticking with the adrenaline junkie spray-and-pray?

Again SP8 has a mock silencer and the barrel will still come right off. I've never tried a silencer on a paintball marker but EagleLox experimented with it. It must be possible to make them very quiet but........no idea on Canadian laws!

Again, I must emphesise the necessity for common sense and discretion. A lot of people seem to think that they are going to 'out-think' or 'out-smart' the ATF with "hypothetical This" and "...but, but, but...that"...You are dancing on razor blades here.

The truth is, there is not one person on this forum qualified to make any kind of determination for the ATF. If you want to know what will work and not violate the law, write to the ATF and find out for yourselves. The law is the law and second guessing or nickel-and-diming points of the law aren't going to be much comfort in Federal Holding...

timbertiger20
05-19-2006, 07:45 PM
I find it incredulous that you have noID system. Here (and in most states) you are issued an "Act" card upon the completion of the Academy and the department issues one with your shield....hrm...suspicious....

I have a diploma and a college degree.......there is no common ID system here what-so-ever........I do have a concealed weapons permit......but that was from before I became an LEO

....If they intended to ever do their job, yes...or at the very least, inform the Detective Unit. It's not up to us to determine what laws we enforce and which we "let slip by"...that's up to the DA of the County/jurisdiction...or in this case, State's Attorney General and Federal Prosecutors...and you know that. If you are going to be biased towards an illegal act because it's a portion of the thing you participate in, it's time to turn in your shield.[/

Absolutely not true......you couldn't be further from the truth! If I turned in everything I saw there would be no movement in the judicial system what-so-ever.........we do determine what laws to enforce........as do our superior officers all the way up through the city. Can you imagine if I wrote a citation for everything I witnessed..........

I have let lots of people go to prevent system tie-ups.........figure here the average law enforcement officer might make $15 an hour after being in the department for a year and most never hit 18. The rural counties might hit $15 if lucky........And as for on duty.......in Kootenai County counties there is 1,245 square miles and 112,297 people. On patrol in the county there is roughly.......3-4 officers from county and 3-4 officers in the major cities........state police.....might have 1-2 if lucky. There was a 50 person fight the other night at a prominent night club.......1 officer responded.......next back up was 40 mins away! If you think we would arrest all 50 perople for fighting public intoxication, and narcotics or other substances they might have......your insane. What happend? An off duty officer brought a K-9 and threatened to let them go if they didn't get in their cars and leave.......they did.....luckily.........better to let some go that are important and keep yourself available to calls that are more dangerous.......there are nights we have to let DUI's go because there is nobody else to cover you.......welcome to Idaho.......

timbertiger20
05-19-2006, 08:15 PM
Obviously off-topic but to shed light on Druid's thoughts, I grabbed a couple laws I don't enforce.........even though myself and other law enforcment officer's break ourselves. Why? Look at them and decide for yourself!

18-6603. Fornication.
Statute text
Any unmarried person who shall have sexual intercourse with an unmarried person of the opposite sex shall be deemed guilty of fornication, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $300 or by imprisonment for not more than six months or by both such fine and imprisonment; provided, that the sentence imposed or any part thereof may be suspended with or without probation in the discretion of the court.

18-6601. Adultery.
Statute text
A married man who has sexual intercourse with a woman not his wife, an unmarried man who has sexual intercourse with a married woman, a married woman who has sexual intercourse with a man not her husband, and an unmarried woman who has sexual intercourse with a married man, shall be guilty of adultery, and shall be punished by a fine of not less than $100, or by imprisonment in the county jail for not less than three months, or by imprisonment in the state penitentiary for a period not exceeding three years, or in the county jail for a period not exceeding one year, or by fine not exceeding $1,000.

Luckily they just repealed the law that said cohabitation must be missionary style only!

BTW.......to make things more intresting.......any public official, elected or otherwise, is extended the same weapons privelages.......also without ID

I don't make the laws.............I just spend time trying to understand there meaning and root.............

druid
05-19-2006, 11:32 PM
EDIT: I'm not really flaming you....really, just venting. As you read you may think so but my responses are more out of exasperation than hatred or disgust. I said these thing because we both know better and it's this mentality that keeps people hating us. There's never any consistency in the things we do. "Hot and Cold" days cannot justify ones complacency. It's what gets us killed...


Obviously off-topic but to shed light on Druid's thoughts, I grabbed a couple laws I don't enforce.........even though myself and other law enforcment officer's break ourselves. Why? Look at them and decide for yourself!

18-6603. Fornication.
Statute text
Any unmarried person who shall have sexual intercourse with an unmarried person of the opposite sex shall be deemed guilty of fornication, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $300 or by imprisonment for not more than six months or by both such fine and imprisonment; provided, that the sentence imposed or any part thereof may be suspended with or without probation in the discretion of the court.

These are generally State/Local laws that aren't enforced because unless it's done in a public place, violates The Right to Privacy and related Civil Liberties. I'd love to see you try and secure a warrant to catch them at home without probable cause and not in the commission of a Felony. Not a good example. As a LEO, you don't have the luxury to 'pick and choose' what laws you enforce. What the Hell is wrong with you?? I'm glad I'm not your Chief...it's dereliction of duty and violates the oath you Swore to uphold. You'd be riding the unemployment line hoping to be mall security one day.

18-6601. Adultery.
Statute text
A married man who has sexual intercourse with a woman not his wife, an unmarried man who has sexual intercourse with a married woman, a married woman who has sexual intercourse with a man not her husband, and an unmarried woman who has sexual intercourse with a married man, shall be guilty of adultery, and shall be punished by a fine of not less than $100, or by imprisonment in the county jail for not less than three months, or by imprisonment in the state penitentiary for a period not exceeding three years, or in the county jail for a period not exceeding one year, or by fine not exceeding $1,000.

Again, unless committed in public...see above...etc, etc.

Luckily they just repealed the law that said cohabitation must be missionary style only!

BTW.......to make things more intresting.......any public official, elected or otherwise, is extended the same weapons privelages.......also without ID
Government employees generally are. They are not normal citizens after they have taken office, except for impeachment/removal from office, arrest, etc. The difference is that they are public figures...not "Joe-nobodies." Their vehicles are given identifying marks for a reason but they still must announce who they are when out of them. Many use State Troopers or local PD as their bodyguards...don't deflect the issue...

I don't make the laws.............I just spend time trying to understand there meaning and root.............


These topics are so dis-similar, they should never have been posted.

The duties of a LEO is not necessarily to understand the meaning of laws, nor to interpret them...at least, not outside the realm of the definition and description of the infraction. That's the lawyer's and Judges jobs...and the Supreme Court's if their Constitutionality is questioned. LEO's are to enforce them as they are written. Period. Remind me to never travel through your jurisdiction because it seems that the Judge Dredd mentality runs rampant there. God knows I might just get arrested for the wrong thing or get away with something serious.....

To keep on topic...the ATF makes the rules and the only way to know for sure about building a silencer is to contact them. Don't take the chance that today you might run into Timber...who picks the laws he enforces...and tomorrow, end up against someone like me who WILL....

timbertiger20
05-20-2006, 12:45 AM
Honestly Druid......when I first started, I believed I could do what your saying.......take every law and treat it the same........It was 2 years of training and alot of arguments with prosecutors that led me to understand how to pick and choose my battles to be won and lost. Sometimes for the greater good of the people and the safety of other Officers we have to let some go. How this relates to the ATF........well I'm not going out to promote the making of silencers nor am I going to try and convince a federal judge to make a ruling on some ATF revised laws. I just wanted to try and get more info on what they were basing there silencer opinions on and how they are looking to enforce this. But just for kicks........if you want to understand a little bit of law enforcement, sit for 1 hour on any given rush hour time of the day, and watch for vehicle code violations, and driving violations. When we first did this we were in POST academy. On average the untrained eye with basic knowledge of the laws will pick 80-90 violations up per hour. An LEO with good recognition of the laws will get 200+ violations per hour at one stop light. Average amount of money our city makes after attorney's fees and court costs, and the law enforcement agency costs..........Less than $2 is what the city gets. Our job is to keep you safe and keep the 1% of dangerous criminals out of our society and to get the rest to obey the important laws.

druid
05-20-2006, 02:43 AM
I understand what you are saying, I've been doing this for a looooooooong time too. Your prosecutors sound like real ---holes. I'm glad ours aren't like that at all and perhaps this is why I responded the way I did.
I completely agree with the last sentence you posted...which is why I emphaticly suggest against breaking the law - especially when it comes to this particular subject. We both know how the ATF works. Ruby Ridge and WACO Texas should forever remain fresh in everyone's mind as to the extremes and lengths that the ATF will go. They rail-roaded Randy Weaver and sentenced the Branch Davidians to a fiery death. The average paintballer doesn't need the ATF bearing down on them or their family like this for a stupid woods-ball product because they (ATF) believes it could be used in the commission of another crime. In a family oriented forum, especially by people like us, we should be drilling it into the children's heads that an illegal silencer has the potential to make the 2 aforementioned incidents repeat themselves in their very own home. It's just not worth it unless it's done the right way.

timbertiger20
05-20-2006, 05:34 AM
Hmmmm...........I have a bunch of friends that were involved in Ruby Ridge......I know all the intimate details that couldn't be released........there was a reason they went after Randy Weaver..........but what happend went way wrong! ATF was most definitely right in pursuing the situation, it's unfortunate! But this is my neck of the woods..........and we tend to run things a bit different than the ATF! Oh and actually our prosecutors are pretty cool........but jails are over crowded and the county refuses to use tax dollars to expand. Here some of our county jails hold 8-12 inmates.........so you learn to deal with it. Kootenai has the largest jail North of the Boise area 8 hours away. So all smaller county overflow is also pushed up here. Money is tight here as county officers are using balistic vests with steel plates that are extremely old and S&W 45 pistols that aren't even serviceable.......they have to use parts from older gun that were xtra's. What can you do? Besides what court in the Nation allows the prosecutor chewing tobacco?.......LOL

druid
05-20-2006, 03:28 PM
Hmmmm...........I have a bunch of friends that were involved in Ruby Ridge......I know all the intimate details that couldn't be released........there was a reason they went after Randy Weaver..........but what happend went way wrong!
yep...he went to one or 2 white supremecy meetings and bounced some checks. Then an ATF agent evtrapped him into cutting off a shotgun below the mandated minimum standard. Then they lied to the DOJ and got the Army involved...and executed the family for it. Where's the door they shot his wife through? NVM.....it's a moot point

ATF was most definitely right in pursuing the situation, it's unfortunate!

Imagine how 'unfortunate' it would be that some 14 yr old's family was flash-banged, dog killed, doors blown off it's hinges and secured at gun-point for a paper towel roll and some toilet paper...
But this is my neck of the woods..........and we tend to run things a bit different than the ATF!
The Federal Gov't has ultimate jurisdiction. Since it's only a 'professinal courtessey' they even tell you about an operation, this is another moot point
Oh and actually our prosecutors are pretty cool........but jails are over crowded and the county refuses to use tax dollars to expand. Here some of our county jails hold 8-12 inmates.........so you learn to deal with it. Kootenai has the largest jail North of the Boise area 8 hours away. So all smaller county overflow is also pushed up here. Money is tight here as county officers are using balistic vests with steel plates that are extremely old and S&W 45 pistols that aren't even serviceable.......they have to use parts from older gun that were xtra's. What can you do? Besides what court in the Nation allows the prosecutor chewing tobacco?.......LOL
I'm really saddened to hear all of that. My facility holds 100's on a block - let alone the entire facility...and there are 2 other county facilities 15 and 30 miles apart from ours. You sir, are a victim of your State and County's failure to provide the necessities to do your jobs.

Regardless...using analogies of jurisdictional laws can't compare to the Federal statutes. Traffic citations and faulty equipment slips don't even come close to violating a Class III weapon and related device.

extrabonez
04-03-2008, 08:22 PM
ok so i read this because i wanted to get a barrel..but it has a muffler on the end its from spyder and would this still be illegal....its a barrel with a silencer looking thing on the end...you can take off the end so u can shoot thru it but from what i can tell there are sponges on the insides....would this be an illegal silencer or just a muffler on a barrel?

DFSniper
04-03-2008, 08:26 PM
is it brand-name or home made?

extrabonez
04-03-2008, 08:31 PM
umm all i know is its called a spyder s.t.f.u muffler barrel

EDIT: sorry if i offented anyone with the name but thats just what its called....

XSiv Force
04-03-2008, 08:32 PM
Dude if it is a barrel that is mass produced by a legit company it should be alright

extrabonez
04-03-2008, 08:34 PM
ok ty

bigred76
04-03-2008, 09:01 PM
Actually, let me clarify that. The STFU barrel is legal as it is not a barrel in normal senses. It is sealed on the front end. If you were to modify the barrel to actually fire, it would be HIGHLY illegal, but otherwise it's in the gray area towards legal. It's for dry-firing only, and no projectiles (balls or otherwise) are fired, so it is not a "silencer" by definition.

Keep in mind, though, that at the moment that it becomes an issue and an officer is to make a field decision on that, it is up to HIS discretion and he might call it a "silencer" and you could be missing it for a while until the courts decide that it isn't. Just a fair warning.

XSiv Force
04-03-2008, 09:07 PM
Just wondering where did he see this

bigred76
04-03-2008, 09:36 PM
www.pbgear.com (Action Village) is my bet.

deano 177
04-03-2008, 09:41 PM
http://images.actionvillage.com/inc/images/large/012-203-0002.jpg?qlt=100&cell=175,300&cvt=jpg

HelpDeskHustler
04-04-2008, 03:37 AM
Actionvillage has a STFU?
Mainly those are just like Bigred said, for dryfiring and diagnostic purposes only.