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vikingshadow
10-11-2008, 05:12 PM
How long's it been since I made one of these? Well, that's too long!

BTW - there is NO tl;dr. I won't do one, and if you ask for one, I'll write a rant about lazy people. :p

Back story:

My town has been declared as one of the top 5 growing cities in Oklahoma. This year, I have students from as far North as Alaska and Canada, and many students from Mexico, one from Venezuela(Sp?), one from Puerto Rico and a student from China. This has always been a town of less than 15000, but we're definitely closer to 25000 now, in a town that's only buit to accomadate probably 13000 comfortably - the roads are absolutely horrible now.

THe majority of these new arrivals are hispanic in origin, though. In fact, INS has set up a large office here just to combat the illegal alien travel, though they don't really do anything about it unless someone REALLY complains.

Just so you know I'm not biased, we're also getting a lot of black people here as well - which if you know anything about this part of the state, that hasn't been the case previously. I even have a Chinese student this year as well - but he was born in Oklahoma (his parents are immigrants and are doctors here - very well respected and downright loved in this town, they are.) We have a couple of Korean food joints ran by actual Koreans, and a few Indians (India Indians) as well as Native Americans in the mix along with a large white population, of course. My point is, we're becoming VERY diverse in a short period of time. (In 1984, when I graduated in a town not far from here, there was ONE black family, and several Native Americans - a family of India Indians and that was it in the tri-county area.)

While I would like to say that everyone that's moving here is well educated, professional people, I can't do that. We're getting basically all levels of education, but mainly those with barely high school level (though I would say 8th grade at times). Oil field work doesn't necessarily require a higher education for the most part, though definitely a lot of them are quite educated. But, along with those parents who are hard working and trying to make a living come those that could care less about the town, the people here, nor the country they are currently residing in.

Ok, here we go!

Every month, I have to travel to a high school in a town that's about an hour and a half away from me. Today was that day, and I took my wife and kids with me. While I have a whole different rant planned for this, let me just say that this meeting I have to attend has become quite painful, both in travel time and in what happens during said time.

Anyway, today I had to wait for the wife and kids to come get me, I decided to explore the high school. I was enjoying it's obvious wonderful history in pictures, trophies, and varied other accomplishments, as well as it's great old architecture though the officials there are totally screwing up with inappropriately placed walls and outside necessities (air conditioners, vents, etc.) when I came across this sign place right on a pillar in the middle of the main hallway.

"According to Title (blah blah blah) let it be known that students are NOT required to participate in the Pledge of Alligience."

WHAT??? I read it twice just to make sure and it just stunned me. While I don't make my students recite the pledge, they do have to stand up and respect those that do. I teach that as a common courtesy. When in Rome...

What bothered me most was that there was a HUGE sign not even two feet away that read, "[insert school name and mascot] PRIDE!" And next to that one, was another one that said, "Our students, Our pride, Our School".

I just sort of shook my head and walked away, a little dejected because I was really having fun exploring this school, but then they pulled this stunt, but this is America right?

Well, tonight I go to Wal-Mart for groceries and other things, and I realize as I'm checking out that the 6 registers around me are all speaking to their customers IN SPANISH. I looked around and noticed that while there were quite a few white and black people around, there was a large number of Hispanic/Latin people standing in line and walking around the store, some of whom I know quite well as I had their children and know that they speak English quite well, if not actually being their native language (born here, for those wondering).

I sort of blew that off as well, but was thinking about it as I went to a local grocery store to pick up some groceries I never buy at Wal=Mart. Once in United, I noticed that the white and black customers FAR outnumbered the Hispanic/Latin customers. And NONE of the registers were speaking Spanish.

When I got home, I got in an argument over the television use and so I sat down to piss and moan on my laptop.

What is wrong with America these days? When I was in college, I took THREE Spanish classes to help me speak to my ESL students, but I wasn't required to take any of the multitude of other languages out there. I took many training sessions learning to speak particular phrases, getting interpretors when needed, and using poor excuses for translators on the internet - I'm reaching out to these people. WHY AREN'T THEY TRYING TO OUT TO ME AND SPEAK MY LANGUAGE????

I know I'm going to get labeled racist because of this. I really don't care. If that makes me racist, ok, I'm racist. However, if I go to a foreign country, I try to learn their customs, rituals and at least enough of their language to TRY to look like an ass while I speak it to the native speakers of said language. And I don't even plan on living there! Why is it wrong for me to expect it to be the same here.

I got an unofficial "reprimand" a couple of weeks ago because I was leading a training session and popped off something I shouldn't have. I was showing the group a spelling website when one of the teachers said, "Does it do this in Spanish?" I looked at her, and I don't know why I said this, but popped back, "I don't know. I teach English." All of the coaches (and several of the teachers) started laughing, one of the teacher laughed and said, "OMG, I can't believe you said that!" (No, none of the teachers in the room were Hispanic - I had the foresight to look around first, thank goodness!) but I was told later that "I could have been more tactful and had [insert Hispanic teacher's name here] heard this, I could have been in trouble. I looked at the reprimanding party and said, "He speaks English just fine and has basically said the same thing to me many times."

Ok, sure I got a long way off of the "According to Title [blah blah blah], students are not required to recite the Pledge of Alligience" with this, but bear with me. Where does a school get off saying we have "[insert school name and mascot] pride" but not American pride. We have school pride, but no sense of nationality? Our grandfathers who fought in WWII are spinning in their graves right now, knowing that they fought for a country that doesn't even realize it's a country anymore. But, because some lawyer and politician got it in their heads to make it nice and cozy for some foreign nationals (they aren't even immigrants now) we are losing.

So, I got to thinking, is America so twisting the "Rights and Freedoms" of it's citizens that it's cutting off it's nose to spite it's face? On PBN, I hear too many times "Freedom of Speech", "Freedom of Religion", and "Freedom of the Press". What I see is that their "Freedom of Speech" is actually treading on someone elses "Freedom of Speech" when they tell someone they are stupid and don't know what they're talking about and they should go drink bleach and die. This is happening all over the place - see the kid who killed herself because of what her "friends" did to her. Their "Freedom of Religion" is just fine so long as you don't say anything about it, which is actually a spit in the face of many religions because their religion REQUIRES them to share, and when did "Freedom of the Press" become "Freedom to spin the truth and say whatever they want to make sure an agenda is met"? We USED to call that "Yellow Journalism" and reporters strived to avoid that at all costs.

I seriously think that "freedom of speech" should include - "You can say what you want until it infringes on someone else's freedom, then it's a capital crime." Yes, I said CAPITAL crime - as in jail time. It's THAT important. Same goes for the other "Freedoms" we abused over the past twenty years (it wasn't this way back before then. There was a STRONG sense of national pride after the 60's thing...) And yes, I said abused. We are ABUSING our freedoms.

While I still think this is the greatest country in the world, I believe it's a "Superpower" in name only now. To be a "Superpower", we have to be united, and we are FAR from being united. Don't believe me? Go into ANY diner, cafe, grocery store, school or church and yell, "Go McCain!" or "Go Obama!" and you'll see how united we are.

I just happen to think that we need to be unified, and to be unified, just like a team, you have to have pride in that team. PRIDE comes from sources outside yourself, but if we aren't allowed to teach pride in our own country, and parents aren't doing it, and the media is so screwed up right now, and politics are so screwed up - who's teaching our children what to believe in? Or what's more, WHAT or WHO ARE they believing in?

By the way, not that this is a slam on Obama - I still don't know how I'm voting as I don't care for either candidate, but he said we should teach Spanish to accomodate the many Hispanics coming into the country. WHAT? This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Well, I could go on and on, but I have an argument to finish with the wife. Damnit.

DFSniper
10-11-2008, 06:01 PM
...i had something coherent to add to your post, but by the time i got done reading, i lost it (and trying to read THAT with a headache didn't help.)

but basically what it comes down to is america trying to change for foreigners while pretending to be an unwavering nation, or something like that. so what if according to statistics white people will be the minority in the US by 2050, we still shouldnt have to accommodate people who came here by choice and didn't bother trying to learn their way around. i hate to say it, but "welcome to america, now speak english or get the **** out!" is probably the truest bumper sticker ever made. i came here when i was five and my mom MADE me learn to read before i started kindergarten, and even in elementary school my english was already better than her's (thank you, Hooked on Phonics!).

badlandsrox
10-11-2008, 06:16 PM
I totally agree with that. I mean no one can say anything that sounds even remotely religious anymore, even a simple happy easter, or merry christmas are some phrases banned from use by public officials becasue "it could offend non christians", and highschools are not allowed to play the national anthem here anymore, because it mentions god once, which apparently can severly offend someone, cause that one word is such a bad word... you can swear all you want, but you CANNOT say god... Also, towards your language point, I couldn't agree with you more, if your going to move to Canada or the US, you have to at least learn a little to accept our customs here, you don't have to agree with them, but you have to accept them. Language is one of these customs (I know its not actually a custom, but bear with me, I've written over 15 pages worth of stuff today, and am not in the mood to think anymore or correct stuff haha), so do not complain that you cannot get service in your native tongue, if it was that important to you, why did you leave? and if you left for fear of your life, is learning a new language that much of a sacrifice? The other thing that really pisses me off, is how people in other countries accuse us as north americans (well actually mostly americans, but sometimes canadians too) of coming to their countries, and expecting everything to revolve around us, like seriously yeah, we may be a little naive towards your customs and practices, but are we going to complain about them to the point of making you stop? No, we are not. Here is a little something to think about...
If a north american was to go to an islamic country, and complain about rammadan, and make sure that when people are in public there can be no talk about anything islamic, that individual would be chastized the world over, however reverse this, and send an islamic person to the states, and have them complain about christmas, and anything religious, we bend over backwards not to offend them, and make sure that they are not offended, it really pisses me off.

I really wish I had more brainpower left tonight, cause this is the one thing that makes me madder than anything, and I have alot more input towards this (and alot easier to read haha), but alas, its just not happening tonight

DRAGON
10-11-2008, 06:38 PM
Wasn't it nice when you were a kid and could care less about all that? Time's running out before the **** hits the fan Vik. What you're feeling is the rancid fragmentations of the new American defecations -

I often tell my kids what they're experiencing in life now is not the true image America has always been before the 90's. More and more of our rights are being taken away in the name of what they(not me) call making the system fair -

Most of these kids don't even feel it since they've only been around these impositions have been in effect. They've been raised on it so they think it's normal. Bladder cops and background check stipulations for employment. No smoking though the government taxes your ass on it and allows these products to be sold. They raised to on it then try to take it away. American citizens that don't have a clue how to speak our national language. Whole portions of cities with store and business signs any long term English speaking Americal can't read or understand. I could go on and on but what's the use?

Money, power and fame have now replaced God. Man and science now think they're God. All I have to say is some day, we'll see about all that - ;)

vikingshadow
10-11-2008, 06:54 PM
Bah - in a totally non related rant, my battery in my Palm died so I've been stuck actually writing things out on a calendar. I bought new pages for my Day Planner and they DON'T FIT! Grrrrrr!

I'm on a roll tonight...

I really think it's just overwork, stress and mid-life that caused me to rant about that. I just think that we are looking at a totally brand new America being born - complete with it's own new world-wide written language (can you say LOL, 4, BFF, etc instead if Laugh Out Loud, For (four) or Best Friends Forever?) and I'm not so sure I really like where things are going.

I've actually come up with a theory, and it's as racist and bigoted a theory as ever - but this doesn't have anything to do with skin color at all, but is all about America. The past few years in my classroom tend to verify my theory, but it's hardly scientific.

It's sort of taken from a story I read many years ago. I honestly think that educated people in America, and probably the world, including those educated in National Pride (or a pride in something other than sports and their own accomplishments), manners and ethics are being out-bred by those who are uneducated, unmotivated, and uncaring. Most "educated" people - I'm talking about those with a Bachelor's degree or higher working within any career (not just a job, but a career)- normally have two kids, maybe three. They are busy furthering said career, buying (or building) a home, attending school functions, most of the time relaxing on the weekends or on vacations, so forth and so on. You know the kind of people I mean.

Whereas, people with barely a high school degree (if that) working at a JOB, (not a career), just trying to make it through the day, never go on vacation, rent (or possibly buying a home), never going on a vacation, having six or seven kids, but not really a "family" - although they think it is. Studies do show that these kids tend to grow up, with a lower level education, and have many kids as well. From time to time, one or two of these kids will go to college and become successful, but usually they mostly stay put. So on and so forth...

Generaly speaking, these people are outbreeding the previous people. Genetics and behaviors are inherited, and get passed from generation to generation. If there were a socialogist willing to take on a multi-generational study of several different families across the continent and maybe across the world, I'd bet he/she would agree that while it's easier than ever for students to get into college these days (standards have definitely been relaxed - it's more a matter of money these days in most colleges. Not all, but most) the overall I.Q. of the country has dropped due in large part to the number of uneducated people have kids that stay in the same town/neighborhood/area and don't try to better themselves and get out.

Now, throw in the lack of National Pride in both the majority of homes AND schools where these kids spend most of their time, the lack of morals, manners and ethics being taught for fear of reprisal from said parents, and you're looking at an America that will eventually become a very large country with a very large population of uneducated people that have access to very large military supplies. AND what I see eventually happening, say a couple hundred years from now if not sooner, is those that are smarter will be running the country with their great technology from behind the scenes (we're already seeing it. Obama from Harvard, Bush from Yale -yes, I said Bush. Despite his speaking ability, he's a very smart person - and those like them) and the overwhelming majority of STUPID (yes, I mean ignorant) people handling the day to day tasks without even knowing they're being manipulated by the "silent" minority.

Seem's strange, doesn't it? IT'S ALREADY HAPPENING.

vikingshadow
10-11-2008, 06:59 PM
Wasn't it nice when you were a kid and could care less about all that? Time's running out before the **** hits the fan Vik. What you're feeling is the rancid fragmentations of the new American defecations -

I often tell my kids what they're experiencing in life now is not the true image America has always been before the 90's. More and more of our rights are being taken away in the name of what they(not me) call making the system fair -

Most of these kids don't even feel it since they've only been around these impositions have been in effect. They've been raised on it so they think it's normal. Bladder cops and background check stipulations for employment. No smoking though the government taxes your ass on it and allows these products to be sold. They raised to on it then try to take it away. American citizens that don't have a clue how to speak our national language. Whole portions of cities with store and business signs any long term English speaking Americal can't read or understand. I could go on and on but what's the use?

Money, power and fame have now replaced God. Man and science now think they're God. All I have to say is some day, we'll see about all that - ;)

You know, I totally agree. Having grown up in the 70's and 80's I hit the tail end of what I like to call "The Morality Years". Things like that really did matter back then, but not now. What pisses me off the most is it's MY generation that's causing this right now (well, those around my generation.) It's OUR kids that are learning these new habits.

I'm a religious person, or I try to be (as in I want to be a Christian but I fail quite often) and I tend to not want to talk about it as it causes all kinds of arguments. I wonder sometimes though, are all these problems and issues we're having these days God's way of saying, "Look. Something's got to change. If you don't fix it yourselves, I'm going to do it for you, and I guarantee you won't like it!"

We're so afraid these days of doing what we know is right for fear of reprisal - remember back in the day when we were told if you spank your kid you'll go to jail and lose your kid? Those days are gone, but the mentality is still there. "If you do this, SOMETHING could happen to you. It's better just to not do anything..."

bigred76
10-11-2008, 10:45 PM
Blah de blah de blah, there's my rant. Much too tired to say much more than a post I put on PBN in Kingman OT when someone said that they were going to report me for "discrimination."

It's not racial discrimination to point out the bad parts of each race, and dislike the stupidity they instill. Every race and creed has it's bad sect, and if you deny knowledge of that simple fact, then you are a blind fool. :) I work as security, and can tell you, I have seen a lot of things, and based on that knowledge and personal experience, I can profile a person based on their skin color, age, clothing, and the way their eyes look (I don't know how to explain it, but when someone's eyes are bloodshot, they're either an insomniac or smokin' dope, etc). It's quite obvious when someone walks up looking like they came off a job site they might have a work knife on them, just like someone who's pants falling off their ass calling me "cuz" every other word is a ****head. There are a rare few out there that prove my view on society wrong, but I have yet to come across them.

So, if you think me finding out that you're black has changed my mind that you are a somewhat "inminded" person who likes anime, and hangs out with very likeminded and limited group of friends, you're wrong... Especially since my final conclusion on you is that you're a cool dude, and I'm chill with that.

Basically... You're not racist by pointing out the differences between different cultures. They are because they're blowing it out of proportion.

Also, I have to agree. If you're teaching an ENGLISH class, Spanish is not part of the curriculum AT ALL IMO.

DFSniper
10-12-2008, 02:09 AM
Blah de blah de blah, there's my rant. Much too tired to say much more than a post I put on PBN in Kingman OT when someone said that they were going to report me for "discrimination."



Basically... You're not racist by pointing out the differences between different cultures. They are because they're blowing it out of proportion.

Also, I have to agree. If you're teaching an ENGLISH class, Spanish is not part of the curriculum AT ALL IMO.

hahaha, i knew you were going to bring that up. i honestly don't think you can consider the kind of stereotyping thats been ingrained into our society as racism. if we could, don't you think the US would be kicking some asses because of all the europeans saying "haha, look at the stupid, wasteful, white americans!"

irishwarrior
10-12-2008, 04:28 AM
American citizens that don't have a clue how to speak our national language.

Sorry to rain on your parade guys, and even though I agree they should learn english, the fact is we have NO official language.

calebh
10-12-2008, 06:06 AM
where's the tl;dr?

:p

TheDarkShadow
10-12-2008, 06:52 AM
...i had something coherent to add to your post, but by the time i got done reading, i lost it (and trying to read THAT with a headache didn't help.)

but basically what it comes down to is america trying to change for foreigners while pretending to be an unwavering nation, or something like that. so what if according to statistics white people will be the minority in the US by 2050, we still shouldnt have to accommodate people who came here by choice and didn't bother trying to learn their way around. i hate to say it, but "welcome to america, now speak english or get the **** out!" is probably the truest bumper sticker ever made. i came here when i was five and my mom MADE me learn to read before i started kindergarten, and even in elementary school my english was already better than her's (thank you, Hooked on Phonics!).

my brother has one of those magnetic ribbons and it says "Think American Speak English" and lol, hooked on phonics (not flaming or anything just remembering the commercials)

ferret15
10-12-2008, 07:42 AM
I wouldn't mind learning more languages because. IMO English is ok.

the supreme court demed that the 10 commandments should be up for display on gov't property and there so the schools(aka, gov't) can't display religious affilation of any kind.
But if you were to have a school club that is not sponsored by the school, they have to included that club and include them in things.

So if the school tells all the clubs they can paint murruals on the wall, that club can put the ten commandments up legally.

Its a bit of bull ****, but thats just how it works.

I hate when people expect you to be accustom, I live in a similar community that went threw a boom. If I ever call anybody and its usually mexians once again. I just start talking and if the adult can't answer, I tell em' to **** off. like you said. Atleast try.
No english and BAd english. there is a diffrence.

DRAGON
10-12-2008, 10:33 AM
Sorry to rain on your parade guys, and even though I agree they should learn english, the fact is we have NO official language.

**Ray of gleaming sunshine re-enters thread**

You get an 'F' for US history knowledge son. Why yes there was an official language set up in the United States of America. It was set up by congress over 200 years ago although it was never written at a federal level. I'll give ya a hint, it wasn't Irish :D

**You may now remove the foot from your mouth** ;)

DFSniper
10-12-2008, 10:48 AM
ouch, drago won that one!

my best friend was on the phone for 3 hours trying to get his Helio Ocean activated (long story short, he has a $250 phone sitting in his room that he has no use for), and half the people he talked to couldn't even speak proper english ON TOP of the fact that everyone was telling him something different...

TheDarkShadow
10-12-2008, 01:32 PM
ouch, drago won that one!

my best friend was on the phone for 3 hours trying to get his Helio Ocean activated (long story short, he has a $250 phone sitting in his room that he has no use for), and half the people he talked to couldn't even speak proper english ON TOP of the fact that everyone was telling him something different...

a helio isnt a phone ;) , havent you ever seen the commercials? :D

STRIKEFIRST
10-12-2008, 09:05 PM
Well thanks alot Bryce...I have to be in Detroit tomorrow morning with 4 other engineers and now I'm too wound up to go to bed!!!!

I am what I consider lucky...my parents couldn't keep their hands to themselves...and they got ME for a PRE graduation present...yep 17 year olds for parents. (I am now 33 for the record.) So what does this mean...this means that I have been blessed with knowing...not just remembering a blur or blip...Knowing my Great Grandparents and my Grandparents on both sides of the family. My Grand fathers are 72 and 83 respectfully and both grandmothers are slightly younger than each ;).

Here's what I was taught when I was young...in the opinion of two of the most intelligent men I have ever met...

Each generation doesn't know what the generation before them has lost. People these days aren't taughtnor do they care to learn what they grandparents went through, how they lived, or what life was like. So, for example. (I don't have all day like my grandfathers did so i'll "break it down very generic)

Generation "a" has freedom #1, #2, #3, #4 and #5

Well generation "a" loses thanks to some crack headed politician or law Freedom #2. Generation "a" fights and argues and complains but gets nowhere...#2 is now "lost" in history.

Generation "b" being raised by Generation "a" hears grumblings about lost freedom #2 but never pays much attention to it. They're too young, preoccupied or just doesn't understand the ramifications.

Generation "b" now due to some law or political correctness garbage losses freedom #5. Generation "b" fights and argues and complains but gets nowhere...#b is now "lost" in history.

Generation "c" being raised by generation "b" hears the same type of grumblings about the loss of freedom #5 and that generation "b" heard from Generation "a" about the loss of freedom #2...BUT Generation "c" doesn't know they lost freedom #2. Generation "b" barely recalls losing freedom #2.

The model keeps repeating with every other generation not knowing what has already been lost or how the AMERICAN way off life has changed or the struggle Americans had to go through to get them in the first place.

So goes the downward slide of the American Citizen as our Great Great or Great or even just or Grandparents knew that to be.

Enter political correctness followed by "tolereance" which then grows with each generation because that's the "popular" and "easy" way to go about life, ...and you end up with a divided, struggling country.

A society where everyone is owed something. A society where right and wrong is being replaced with you may offend "Fred". A society that divides themselves into smaller groups because that's the only way to live what you believe in. A society that can be swayed by a popularity and morals are set aside. Where a group can strive to change the very basis of what this country was founded on and be met with little or know resistance.

I was 14 the first time I was given that speech. I've heard it a few times since (the long version with example after example). The sad thing is that at first I took as a rant by old men. Every year I get older my grandfathers have made me observant enough to see the moral decay of society and the principles on which this society and this country where founded.

So...why won't people come to our country legally or illegally and at the bare minimum treat her with respect and at least learn enough of the language to do BASIC communications with her citizens?

We have no Spine left and we won't MAKE them.

STRIKEFIRST
10-12-2008, 09:10 PM
Sorry to rain on your parade guys, and even though I agree they should learn english, the fact is we have NO official language.

Let me guess...you think that the Civil War was started over Slavery.

American History...Learn it on your own and not what your school books have been rewritten with.

calebh
10-12-2008, 09:55 PM
what are you talking about?

benjamin franklin made a few changes to english that americans adopted, if that's what you're referring to... but legally, there is no official language of the US... that's simple fact. states occasionally have official languages, but there are official languages other than just english. louisiana's official languages are french and english, for example. 30 states have official languages, including those few like louisiana. but then there's another 20 states without any official language.

i just don't see the relevance of your post, at least in the context of the quote...

honestly, i think americans could use a little more exposure to the rest of the world. but i think immigrants should learn english. with few exceptions, they have to if they want to become citizens. stop illegal immigration, and i think we'd solve the perceived problem. personally, i think we just need to enforce the laws we have. too bad the republicans in office are all talk, and the democrats don't care about this issue...

STRIKEFIRST
10-13-2008, 03:20 AM
what are you talking about?

benjamin franklin made a few changes to english that americans adopted, if that's what you're referring to... but legally, there is no official language of the US... that's simple fact. states occasionally have official languages, but there are official languages other than just english. louisiana's official languages are french and english, for example. 30 states have official languages, including those few like louisiana. but then there's another 20 states without any official language.

i just don't see the relevance of your post, at least in the context of the quote...

honestly, i think americans could use a little more exposure to the rest of the world. but i think immigrants should learn english. with few exceptions, they have to if they want to become citizens. stop illegal immigration, and i think we'd solve the perceived problem. personally, i think we just need to enforce the laws we have. too bad the republicans in office are all talk, and the democrats don't care about this issue...

**Ray of gleaming sunshine re-enters thread**

You get an 'F' for US history knowledge son. Why yes there was an official language set up in the United States of America. It was set up by congress over 200 years ago although it was never written at a federal level. I'll give ya a hint, it wasn't Irish :D

**You may now remove the foot from your mouth** ;)

and as much as I pick at Canadians in jest...look up what it takes to become a citizen there...I believe a basic use of TWO languages is required...we don't ask for much us common folk just would like people to learn one.

**SIGH**

Off to Detroit!!!

irishwarrior
10-13-2008, 04:13 AM
Let me guess...you think that the Civil War was started over Slavery.

American History...Learn it on your own and not what your school books have been rewritten with.

A. I know that the Civil War was not started over slavery and B. I had learned via my textbook that America had chosen English as an official language, but, I had learned elsewhere that there was no legal official language (I am only talking in a strictly federal sense) and I don't trust my textbooks very much, so...

DFSniper
10-13-2008, 06:22 AM
well, when 87% of the population speaks it, it would make sense to become the unofficial Official Language.

i was trying to do some searching, just for argument's sake, and i couldnt find out if german is the official language of germany or not. just curious because they're in the same situation we are, by 2050 they'll be a minority in their own country too.

vikingshadow
10-13-2008, 08:01 AM
I just wish we could instill some national pride in ourselves. I remember it was a BIG deal back in the 70's and 80's - they even had commercials about it! (Remember the crying Indian?)

Seriously, I can spout off all the "remembers" I want, but Strikefirst said it best - each generation is losing something (or somethings) and the next isn't trying to get it back because they don't know about it, but what's worse is we're becoming more and more selfish - it's all about us, no one else.

Unfortunately, the only thing "United" about the United States is that we're all in this together.

durrell
10-13-2008, 08:57 AM
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!!!!!!!

:flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame:

DFSniper
10-13-2008, 02:58 PM
I just wish we could instill some national pride in ourselves. I remember it was a BIG deal back in the 70's and 80's - they even had commercials about it! (Remember the crying Indian?)

Seriously, I can spout off all the "remembers" I want, but Strikefirst said it best - each generation is losing something (or somethings) and the next isn't trying to get it back because they don't know about it, but what's worse is we're becoming more and more selfish - it's all about us, no one else.

Unfortunately, the only thing "United" about the United States is that we're all in this together.

seriously, what we need is a new version of the red scare. that would instill some nationalism! i guess 9/11 just wasn't big enough :confused:

DRAGON
10-13-2008, 03:48 PM
seriously, what we need is a new version of the red scare. that would instill some nationalism! i guess 9/11 just wasn't big enough :confused:

We need aliens for that and I don't meant the type from other continents. The green type with saucers and lasers and "space modulators". Where's Marvin when you need him? -

DFSniper
10-13-2008, 03:50 PM
*shivers* anal probing...

KattReMX
10-13-2008, 06:04 PM
How long's it been since I made one of these? Well, that's too long!


the roads are absolutely horrible now.

THe majority of these new arrivals are hispanic in origin, though. In fact, INS has set up a large office here just to combat the illegal alien travel, though they don't really do anything about it unless someone REALLY complains.



this my friends, is what we call irony

DFSniper
10-13-2008, 06:27 PM
what, hispanics in OK? not like its close to the border or anything :dodgy:

HelpDeskHustler
10-13-2008, 09:03 PM
I don't have very much national pride. Frankly, I'm rather disgusted at the arrogance and slovenly state of our nation. We pride ourselves on a system which promotes consumption, not progression. Not to mention, I don't find it disrespectful for a student to sit while others do the pledge. I'd rather all the students refrain from saying it until they can comprehend what it means, otherwise it's just brainwashing the propagation of the system.

vikingshadow
10-14-2008, 03:53 AM
this my friends, is what we call irony

Not sure I get it, unless you mean my not capitalizing the word Hispanics, or that the majority of immigrants being Hispanic in Oklahoma. I'm not Hispanic myself, though I can claim quite a bit of Native American in me, so I'm missing the irony? As I said, it's not a rant directed towards the race as a whole, just those that don't try to take on some responsibility of acclimating to a climate/culture that isn't the same as they left - not totally changing, but changing enough to at least speak the language.

On that note, on television last night there were THREE commercials in a row that were totally in Spanish. I wasn't watching a Spanish channel, it was like NBC (I think - may have been TNT). I felt insulted a bit - kind of like not being able to join a women's only gym because I'm a guy but knowing if I said no women were allowed I'd get sued. I used to watch Telemundo when I was taken Spanish classes, and I don't recall a SINGLE commercial in English.

Oh, well.

Right now, I'd like the aliens (outer space kind) to come. At least the anal probes would be a change from the normal anal probing we normally get around the US of A now!

HDH - unfortunately, youth are saying that same thing everywhere, but due to the nature of younger people, if we don't at least require standing during the pledge your generation will NEVER come out of this anti-nation attitude. It has to start somehow, same as loyalty to a school. Once you get them started THEN you explain why. I agree - the pledge and it's reasons should be taught, but you can't teach a bunch of people not willing to learn.

DFSniper
10-14-2008, 10:46 AM
all this talk about aliens reminded me of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwar

a little extreme, but hey, maybe thats what we need!

STRIKEFIRST
10-14-2008, 11:17 AM
Vike - it all goes back to that selfishness...youth apparently don't care what our fore fathers went through.

Here is an example from my wifes family...my wife for the record can't stand anyone moving to our country and not learning our country's language...so...here we go.

My wife's grandparents are polish, her grandfather was a high ranking Polish Police Official...they were put into a concentration camp. They both survived and were given a choice to go anywhere in the world...they chose Sao Paulo, Brazil. Speaking ONLY polish they both learned the native tongue of Portugese. After birthing some children they decided to chase the "American Dream" and emmigrated to New York and settled on Long Island. They became citizens and BOTH of her grandparents learned the native tongue..ENGLISH. Why? In every instance they wanted to be responsible members of the society in which they lived. To be a part of and not a part from.

With all they went through they could have easily said screw it the world owes us a ride, but did they? No. Why? Because they realized the only way to get something out of life and to progress forward was hard work and faith in there nation. A nation they chose to come to.

HelpDeskHustler
10-14-2008, 11:24 AM
HDH - unfortunately, youth are saying that same thing everywhere, but due to the nature of younger people, if we don't at least require standing during the pledge your generation will NEVER come out of this anti-nation attitude. It has to start somehow, same as loyalty to a school. Once you get them started THEN you explain why. I agree - the pledge and it's reasons should be taught, but you can't teach a bunch of people not willing to learn.

I don't see the reason in pretending we're awesome when we aren't. For clarity, which is actually quite obvious, I wouldn't consider myself to have national pride because I'm not proud of what the nation I belong to stands for anymore; I just don't see us as a country of freedom anymore, for a number of reasons, namely censorship and consumerism/capitalism. As for the question of the pledge, I honestly think it's more American NOT to require the pledge to be said, since this is a country of free thought and free speech.

That's All IMO. I'd gladly stand by a country I believe in, but I simply do not have faith in our economic system or the intelligence of my fellow American. I'm being screwed by the majority signing away my rights, and I'm tired of it, I might as well speak my mind so that they don't take that right away too.

HelpDeskHustler
10-14-2008, 11:30 AM
Vike - it all goes back to that selfishness...youth apparently don't care what our fore fathers went through.

I don't mean to be rude, but as I find this highly offensive, I'll try to explain why. I think that this statement is completely unfounded and frankly just garbage. Our country was founded on ideas of freedom. America is slipping further towards oppression and it's time somebody stood up for it. Not having national pride does not mean you don't respect the deeds of those before you, it means you don't like where the country is now, and since America is constantly in flux, I think it's absolutely unfair to make the conclusion that we don't care. Don't even get me started on selfishness, since the motivations which have silenced our freedom of thought, speech and expression already have all been for the purpose of somebody feeling more "morally able to sleep at night" while those who have something to say have been gagged.

calebh
10-14-2008, 12:48 PM
my quote, drago's quote...
i pointed out there never was an official language at the national level, and what? there's never been a national official language? why thank you for that extremely insightful post... let's try some history, which you seem so adept at pointing to.

http://www.strictlyspanish.com/whitepaper2.htm
In 1780, John Adams proposed to the Continental Congress that English should be declared the official language of the United States. His proposal was deemed "undemocratic and a threat to individual liberty.”
Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the 2000 Executive Order No. 13166 require that public entities receiving federal funds must have all vital documents available in every language that their clients speak
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Jwcrawford/question.htm
Congress had never even considered declaring English the nation's official language until 1981, when a constitutional English Language Amendment was introduced by the late Senator S. I. Hayakawa.
http://www.workings.com/LIA_His.htm <= this group, btw is FOR english as an official language
Having just fought a war against the English, however, the Founders were reluctant to declare English their official language.

i wonder what happened after this: http://www.coxwashington.com/news/content/reporters/stories/2007/06/07/BC_IMMIGRATION07_2NDLD_COX.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=0 ... oh, it died.

there was one instance in all that i found where another language was struck down. but that's not quite the same as making an official language, especially not now that we have title VI

please, if you still disagree, give me some links so i know you're not completely crazy.

bigred76
10-14-2008, 01:06 PM
I think you're crazy for giving links. Sources are not always reliable online.

vikingshadow
10-14-2008, 04:40 PM
Guys, let's not forget what this whole rant began as, the lack of pride in anything besides self in this country. I'm not dissing HDH at all, or the opinion of anyone else in this thread - part of what this country was built upon was the dissatisfaction of those that would be controlled in said country. Let's not EVER forget that!

I just find it interesting that high school, something everyone is dying to leave, entirely too drama-laden, and utterly ridiculous a great percentage of the time we spend there, carries more pride and respect than a country.

Language or not, it's unfortunate that possibly within the next generation, we could become nothing more than an unsettled chunk of land with political lines, republican and democratic, and nothing of substance, drawn between stakes.

STRIKEFIRST
10-15-2008, 08:03 AM
HDH - OBVIOUSLY you care or you wouldn't have even participated in this thread.

In my "neck of the woods" you would be the rarity...not having pride because of the decay of the country that you pointed out that you see.

There is a big difference in my eyes of someone like yourself and someone that I see as not caring.

Here in Michigan we call it "Union Mentality"

calebh
10-15-2008, 12:24 PM
I just find it interesting that high school, something everyone is dying to leave, entirely too drama-laden, and utterly ridiculous a great percentage of the time we spend there, carries more pride and respect than a country.

interesting... that's almost how i see america right now...

when the great part of political discussion in a presidential election year revolves around things OTHER than the issues, something is seriously wrong. when people feel forced to vote AGAINST someone rather than FOR someone, something is seriously wrong. when the only honorable campaigns are those of obscure third-party candidates, something is seriously wrong. when change becomes the buzzword of a race between the status quo, something is seriously wrong.

yes, i'm young. yes, i'm voting. the only thing my vote is going to do is tell the status quo to **** itself. if you haven't figured it out, i have kind of a bleak outlook on the future of this country.

Language or not, it's unfortunate that possibly within the next generation, we could become nothing more than an unsettled chunk of land with political lines, republican and democratic, and nothing of substance, drawn between stakes.
honestly, i believe that's exactly where we're heading unless we break the current system. this economic crisis might help shake up america enough without things getting worse, but i'm not hopeful. at all. you could almost say i don't care anymore. almost.

i'm not blaming the youth...

durrell
10-15-2008, 09:14 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

If people would wake up and learn that it's not the president who runs the show, we'd be in much better shape. But we're surrounded by idiots. I'm just going to do my thing and pray for the best. What you or the next John Smith does doesn't really matter to me. I'm going to serve my God, love my wife, and raise my kids the best way I know how and provide for them the best way I know how.

bigred76
10-16-2008, 02:10 AM
I sure as hell am blaming the youth. I'm blaming everyone in this God-forsaken country, though. America needs a rejuvenation button, and someone with enough balls to finally press it.

calebh
10-16-2008, 04:20 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

If people would wake up and learn that it's not the president who runs the show, we'd be in much better shape.
theoretically, yes. but bush has managed to break that constitutional mold...

HelpDeskHustler
10-16-2008, 05:36 AM
theoretically, yes. but bush has managed to break that constitutional mold...

It's really NOT JUST Bush. While he may or may not be the "straw that broke the camel's back" and really brought it to public attention, whether he is responsible or not is a moot point. Our rights have been getting stripped for years under a multitude of presidents. It takes more than just a president to pass a law, but I haven't seen people blaming congress for the Patriot act, or the public for supporting it enough to let congress pass it without a much larger ruckus than the relatively small uproar which it caused.

STRIKEFIRST
10-16-2008, 07:19 AM
It's really NOT JUST Bush. While he may or may not be the "straw that broke the camel's back" and really brought it to public attention, whether he is responsible or not is a moot point. Our rights have been getting stripped for years under a multitude of presidents. It takes more than just a president to pass a law, but I haven't seen people blaming congress for the Patriot act, or the public for supporting it enough to let congress pass it without a much larger ruckus than the relatively small uproar which it caused.

DING DING DING

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

Damn...KUSA would make a hell of a congress!!! ;)

vikingshadow
10-16-2008, 07:43 AM
Congress? Shoot, I'm running for PRESIDENT!

calebh
10-16-2008, 08:25 AM
i'd vote for you.

HDH, i agree, we've been losing rights for years, especially with the drug war, but i don't think ANY president has EVER had the balls to do what bush has done. i mean, maybe another president would have done the same thing given 9/11, but i doubt it. unless **** (EDIT: really?) cheney and karl rove were behind the scenes again.

a large portion of congress was under the impression that the patriot act was going to be fairly short lived and reformed before it was renewed. something needed to be done, and i'm glad something was done. but it needed to be evaluated and changed, and it never was. i see that as a fault of both parties. it's not like bush was going to do anything to help make adjustments on it.

the president has a lot of power, and it's especially evident when the opposing party barely controls congress. the democrats can't push anything through without worrying about a veto. if it gets vetoed, they don't have the votes to push it through anyway. bush doesn't respect congress. all presidents have the right to appoint judges while congress isn't in session, but few have ever disrespected congress enough to appoint people who would never make it through congress.

yes, i realize presidents can't do everything on their own. but they do have a lot of power. think of foreign affairs, where the president is the face of the american government to other nations. the president sets the attitude of the government towards other nations. look at iraq, here we are in a war, yet there was never a clear declaration of war, the majority of americans oppose it, but bush wanted it. never mind the cause of it, bush got us there and kept us there pretty much regardless of what congress has said. remember in 2006, when all the democrats said we would leave iraq? why are we still there? you could blame it on congress, but every time the democrats have come close to ending it, bush threatens a veto, which i've already pointed out, can't be overruled by such a slim majority. personally, i just think congress should grow a pair...

DFSniper
10-16-2008, 01:08 PM
here's something to think about: we had a republican president and a republican congress. everyone got tired of it and last election we ended up with a democrat congress. has anyone noticed any change? i honestly can't say that the dems are doing a better job...

vikingshadow
10-16-2008, 01:16 PM
Well, when you have one part who is going to vote down what the other party does, and the other party vetoing what the other party does, not a lot is going to get accomplished.

I wish we would get a MIXED party ticket - have a republican pres or VP, and a democrat pres or VP then an independent Congress, or any mixture of the three parties. If we really wanted ALL people represented, then that's one really good way to do it.

Or better yet, just get rid of all parties entirely and just say, "[insert name of candidate] is running." No R, no D, no Independent behind their name. Honestly, they wear those things like their Master's degrees or doctorates, or something.

badlandsrox
10-16-2008, 02:37 PM
You know what you guys need in the states? More of a multi party system, like we have here in Canada. When there isnt a majority rule, it isnt just one party passing a bunch of laws that they see are fit, the parties must agree and come to a consensus to get the minimum 50% vote on laws etc, which results in each party having a say in the bill, thus reducing total left wing, or total right wing bills past. The other nice thing, when you have more parties, you have more political mindsets that people can choose, so you arent just making a shot in the dark between 2, even though you support ideas from both sides

jim762
10-16-2008, 02:41 PM
I agree, but the Democrats and Republicans have so much money behind them from lobbyist groups and big business that it is impossible for an independent to have any chance at all. While a few Independents have become Governors they normally only last 1 or 2 terms.

Ted Nugent for President!!!!!

DFSniper
10-16-2008, 07:35 PM
Ted Nugent for President!!!!!

QFT! and since you haven't heard this story before (i have to bring it up every time someone mentions the Nuge!), my dad graduated high school with one of his daughters and had him as the guest speaker at his graduation.

calebh
10-16-2008, 08:33 PM
if you guys want to see a break from the two-party system, you need to vote outside the two parties. just an fyi.

however much money the two parties get from lobbyists, in the end, the voters still control who goes to washington. if voters stop falling into the trap of believing there's only two options (which those lobbyists, and the current two-party system, perpetuate intentionally. ever notice an attack ad going after a 3rd party candidate? no, because that would help legitimize that candidate in the public's eye), we can bring the power back to the people.

jim762
10-16-2008, 08:41 PM
QFT! and since you haven't heard this story before (i have to bring it up every time someone mentions the Nuge!), my dad graduated high school with one of his daughters and had him as the guest speaker at his graduation.

Outstanding!!!! He was the first concert i ever went to and have been a fan ever since. Even named one of my dogs after him!!!

jim762
10-16-2008, 08:44 PM
if you guys want to see a break from the two-party system, you need to vote outside the two parties. just an fyi.

however much money the two parties get from lobbyists, in the end, the voters still control who goes to washington. if voters stop falling into the trap of believing there's only two options (which those lobbyists, and the current two-party system, perpetuate intentionally. ever notice an attack ad going after a 3rd party candidate? no, because that would help legitimize that candidate in the public's eye), we can bring the power back to the people.

I agree, it is still up to the voters. But the majority of people in the US are sheep and want to be told what to do. So who do you think they are going to listen too? The Media decides who they want to back and shows them in a good light. They do nothing but dig up dirt on the other guys.