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View Full Version : A couple of different Upgrade Questions...


Erlkonig
01-05-2008, 06:03 PM
I've been playing since September and have owned the MR-1 since the end of October or so. I love the marker and think it is a GREAT woodsball/recball gun, but I was looking at a couple of upgrades. Just like before I bought the MR-1 I have done quite a bit of research on these boards, on pbreview, otters customs and a few other websites and as a result I still have a few questions.

1. The whole CO2 vs. HPA debate:

A good many people say that HPA is better for the following reason:

a) Because it is a "cleaner" gas, meaning there is a much smaller chance of getting particles in the marker as a direct result of the tank.

b) It is also a more consistent gas as it is constantly in a gas state so it does not have to expand, or boil if you will, so it is not effected by the temperature of the tank and by use of the regulator always delivers a constant 800-850PSI, ~400PSI if you have a Low Pressure Bottle (though from what I have been able to find it looks like there is not real advantage to a LP bottle as you have a risk of shoot down depending upon your gun set up and a HP bottle is fine since the second regulator, which seems a standard on most HPA setups, can be used to adjust the pressure into the gun to whatever you want), or whatever pressure you set it at if you have an adjustable tank.

c) This also leads into the whole liquid CO2 freezing the gun up and rendering it useless until it thaws out, which is an item you needn't worry about with HPA since it actually warms up the faster you shoot.


Now I have come across a couple of sites and articles which put this whole debate in a different light, I am providing a couple links to the sites I could remember:

http://forums.paintball.com/index.php?showtopic=37554&mode=threaded&pid=396359
http://www.ody.ca/~cwells/articles.htm
http://www.spyderzone.net/modules.php?name=FAQ&myfaq=yes&id_cat=6&categories=CO2+vs.+HPA%2FN2
There is a fourth site I wanted to put up but I can't find, it gave the mathematics and field results for each set up to support the statements in the above sites as well. If I find it later i will be sure to put it up here.

a) Overall you will get more out of a CO2 tank then a similar sized HPA tank since CO2 being stored in a liqiud will result in a MUCH greater volume overall then you get out of the gas in an HPA tank.

b) While it is true that CO2 MAY contain some particulate from what ever process it is a by product of, it is NOT true that it will contain "dirt".

c) By utilizing a regulator/stabilizer, such as a Palmers which has been said to be the best for a CO2 setup, you are able to set the pressure the gun will see. Now you may say that that is wonderful but useless since tank pressure can vary from the 850PSI that most markers are designed to operate at, down to 500-600PSI depending upon the temperature, but you need to bear in mind that a good many markers, Spyders included, will operate just fine below that mark and from what I have been able to find over the last few months a good many Spyders will run between 600-850PSI depending upon the marker. This is something I am planning to test, but if you guys have any insight on this it would be great =). If this is indeed the case then it would allow you to have much greater consistency over a much greater temperature range.

d) Utilizing the regulator/stabilizer also makes it near to impossible for liquid CO2 to make it into the gun, there for no "freeze ups" do to swollen o-rings and what not. Though this raises another point that it is possible to modify the gun to run off of liquid CO2. I know they used to be designed that way by multiple companies and there are a good number of guns that can be tweaked to operate off liquid CO2 still, though whether the MR-1 is one of them, I don't have a clue. But that is another thing which would make CO2 a step above HPA as it provides equal consistency with a greater numbers of shots for the same volume.

I wasn't able to find a discussion of these particular items in these boards (there were plenty of threads extolling the virtues of HPA over CO2, but none going over the advantages of CO2 over HPA), so I am hoping that I am not dragging up a topic that has been beaten to death as appears to happen frequently here, but I am looking to inform myself and possibly other in the process.


2. Does the Low Blow Bolt from Alamo City actually do anything?

I am thinking that I may upgrade the bolt to either a) a Low Blow if it actually works, or b) a standard Delrin bolt as the lighter weight and reduced friction should help lower the required pressure to operate and therefore work into the above HPA vs. CO2 thoughts...

3. What changes would I need to make to my marker to utilize a Palmer Stabilizer?

Regardless if I stick with CO2 or change to HPA I will be putting the stabilizer on so it makes sense to use a Palmers which will work with either one. Not to mention I will have a CO2 tank as back-up for the times the HPA would be out for Hydro testing or any other things that come up.

My intent would be to use either a female with a ring mount or inline as I like the front grip on the MR-1 and would hate to get rid of it. With the ring mount would I need to change the air lines, or get an adapter so the current lines will accept the threads? Since it looks like the unit would replace the ASA and the drop forward it still looks like it would connect in roughly the same spot so hopefully wouldn't need any other real changes other then removing the ASA and mounting the unit.

Thanks for your help here =)

As I think of other things I will certainly update this thread ;-)

deano 177
01-06-2008, 07:32 AM
Welcome to the boards.

Well, I'm no airsmith but the advantages of of hpa vs co2 on these markers is probably neglible at best. For ease of use it is probably better because after the game you can walk up to the fill station and pump it back up to full power. You also do not have to worry about the weather effecting your marker.

As far as safty... Most people know that if you point the co2 powered marker down it will let liquids enter the internals and may cause FPS spikes and ball flight irregularities. This is not an issue with hpa because there is no liquid. You also have the issue of the co2 expanding in the tank and blowing the burst disks which is not so much dangerous in its self but you might kill yourself trying to get away from it.:D

I have a friend that plays with hpa and he is always running out of air. He does have the smaller tanks that are 48ci and 3k psi. I think he expects that because it is about the same size as a 20oz co2 that it will have the same amount of shots...:rolleyes:

Erlkonig
01-06-2008, 09:54 AM
First of, here is another link I found helpful on the whole HPA vs CO2 debate:

http://forums.paintball.com/index.php?showtopic=28497&mode=threaded&pid=281221


I was also think of getting an anti-siphon tank for the gun as this is supposed to help consistency as well. You brought up the safety of the tank as a thought and I agree it is an issue, but the way I see it is that in general the risk of a CO2 burst disk rupturing is right up there with the HPA disks. The difference there being that while a CO2 tank at 100% fill and 100 degrees F is sitting at ~1500PSI +/- a a few pounds, the HPA bottles are at 3k, 4.5k or 5k at a full fill. Not that it matters since 1500PSI is more then enough to do lethal damage it is still far safer in my mind then having triple that pressure rocketing around...Plus I play in New Hampshire and I do NOT forsee myself playing in 100 degree temperatures ;-)

My hope is to make the mods needed, such as a lighter bolt/striker, polished internals, possibly a new valve/valve spring and others so that I can lower my MR-1 into the 600PSI or so range. It may not be likely, but it is something I intend to experiment with once the Palmer Stabilizer arrives =)

One thing I am not real sure of at the moment is difference a Low Blow Bolt would make. I don't mind spending $10 extra if it works, I easily blow $10 in a week on stupid things anyway that I do not need, so I don't mind putting it into something that will pay off. But if it doesn't work, then I would be better off going with the other delrin bolt that would perform as well and save me on O-Ring Maintenance...

Also...On the Palmer Stabilizer, I was mislead at first be a couple of pictures. I thought the Block Mount was a drop forward as well so I was steering clear as it would likely mean getting a new macroline, but after more investigation it looks as though i may be wrong. So the question I have now is whether or not there is a significant difference between the Block and Ring mounts. I like the look of the Ring better, but if the block is more secure and stands up better then i should obviously go with that I would think ;-)

Thanks =)

Erlkonig
01-07-2008, 03:20 PM
Here we go with another question =D

Ok, I was looking around and toying with the idea of getting a new valve for my marker to drop the operating pressure as it would fit in VERY nicely with the above discussion on CO2 vs HPA and I could keep my CO2 tank instead of spending a ton on an HPA tank.

What valve would be my best option? I know Otters site sings the praises of the Maddman Rocket Valve and the AKA Tornado Valve and Bolt, but I saw in another thread that the MR has a pain in the butt valve spring that can make things more difficult to tune. Is there a valve that will just slip right in and do a good job, or would I wind up having to monkey around a bit with whatever I bought if I do this anyway?

Just a thought I had while spacing out at work today ;-)

Erlkonig
01-08-2008, 11:12 AM
Up Up Up...

If you don't want to comment on the first post, could you help me out at lwast on the valve questions :p

deano 177
01-08-2008, 03:24 PM
Up Up Up...

If you don't want to comment on the first post, could you help me out at lwast on the valve questions :p I don't think that people don't want to help, I think that most just don't know!:D I am looking for answers, too. This marker stuff is trial and error. Sometimes it takes a while to figure the stuff out. The hard part is coming off the cash to get these things to try!

stil
01-09-2008, 02:19 AM
The hard part is coming off the cash to get these things to try!

Ain't that the truth! :D

I should have a new delrin bolt and striker before the end of the month. If you like I'll keep you informed as to how it goes, Erlkonig.

Erlkonig
01-09-2008, 05:39 AM
I know, it's just tough when your excited about doing things but don't know if they'll work ;-)

Plus I have seen some posts from people that made me think someone had gone through the trial and error with the valves ;-)

I'm just letting my impatient little kid side shine through is all, pay him no mind ;-)

Critical
01-09-2008, 06:56 AM
Wow, so much in one thread, let's see if I can take this one at a time...

a) Because it is a "cleaner" gas, meaning there is a much smaller chance of getting particles in the marker as a direct result of the tank.

I don't think you really need to worry about particulates with either gas, just make sure the threads are clean and the o-rings are in good condition.

b) It is also a more consistent gas as it is constantly in a gas state so it does not have to expand, or boil if you will, so it is not effected by the temperature of the tank and by use of the regulator always delivers a constant 800-850PSI, ~400PSI if you have a Low Pressure Bottle (though from what I have been able to find it looks like there is not real advantage to a LP bottle as you have a risk of shoot down depending upon your gun set up and a HP bottle is fine since the second regulator, which seems a standard on most HPA setups, can be used to adjust the pressure into the gun to whatever you want), or whatever pressure you set it at if you have an adjustable tank.

Don't mess with the low pressure tanks, they're not neccessary.

c) By utilizing a regulator/stabilizer, such as a Palmers which has been said to be the best for a CO2 setup, you are able to set the pressure the gun will see. Now you may say that that is wonderful but useless since tank pressure can vary from the 850PSI that most markers are designed to operate at, down to 500-600PSI depending upon the temperature, but you need to bear in mind that a good many markers, Spyders included, will operate just fine below that mark and from what I have been able to find over the last few months a good many Spyders will run between 600-850PSI depending upon the marker. This is something I am planning to test, but if you guys have any insight on this it would be great =). If this is indeed the case then it would allow you to have much greater consistency over a much greater temperature range.

Some have had their Spyders down into the ~220 range, but 400-600 is fairly low pressure for a Spyder, on average. However, this is achieved by trial and error using a number low pressure/high volume parts in different combinations to achieve the lowest functioning pressure.

d) Utilizing the regulator/stabilizer also makes it near to impossible for liquid CO2 to make it into the gun, there for no "freeze ups" do to swollen o-rings and what not. Though this raises another point that it is possible to modify the gun to run off of liquid CO2. I know they used to be designed that way by multiple companies and there are a good number of guns that can be tweaked to operate off liquid CO2 still, though whether the MR-1 is one of them, I don't have a clue. But that is another thing which would make CO2 a step above HPA as it provides equal consistency with a greater numbers of shots for the same volume.

You are correct, similar sized CO2 and HPA, CO2 gets more shots. Also, the Palmer's stabilizer, once broken in, is very consistent and, when I was using one, I never had any freezing problems, regardless of rate of fire.

2. Does the Low Blow Bolt from Alamo City actually do anything?

Yes, it uses more air than neccessary.

I am thinking that I may upgrade the bolt to either a) a Low Blow if it actually works, or b) a standard Delrin bolt as the lighter weight and reduced friction should help lower the required pressure to operate and therefore work into the above HPA vs. CO2 thoughts...

Go with the Alamo City 2 o-ring bolt, or the Bandit Bolt or similar, the 3 o-ring bolt works fine, but "can" chew up detents/have more wear to the front o-ring on the bolt.

3. What changes would I need to make to my marker to utilize a Palmer Stabilizer?

If you are using it on your MR1? you will need the Tippmann 98 ring mount, a 90* NPT fitting, a new, slightly longer stainless steel line, and an NPT to metric adapter to convert the lines threading to the Spyders metric threading.

What valve would be my best option? I know Otters site sings the praises of the Maddman Rocket Valve and the AKA Tornado Valve and Bolt, but I saw in another thread that the MR has a pain in the butt valve spring that can make things more difficult to tune. Is there a valve that will just slip right in and do a good job, or would I wind up having to monkey around a bit with whatever I bought if I do this anyway?

Be prepared to monkey. With the MR1s oddball valve spring, nothing is going to be 100% tuneable out of the box. You may need to source springs of the right length from spring makers, or cut down a set of main springs. No valve will operate at best efficiency with just the stock valve spring. Also, the Rocket Valve would be a nightmare to set up properly, IMHO. There are also Bandit valves and NDz valves that have very good flow, are inexpensive and have had very good reviews.

crecsky
03-05-2008, 10:37 PM
You could always just go with the "poor mans modifications" on OtterSC's site then you wouldn't really have to worry about the problems with the valve spring. Although the custom mods may end up taking more time than just fiddling with the valve spring.

What's more fulfilling? Buying the parts and putting them in, or doing it yourself? Besides if they don't work great you can just buy the parts after. I personally would go the mod then buy route and not the other way around. You may find that it is working up to your standards without having to dish out the cash.