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HelpDeskHustler
10-09-2007, 01:59 PM
Most of us here are avid paintball players, or community with some interest in paintball, and it's a reasonable assumption that the people who play paintball like how it's played. Usually a "complex game of tag" where elimination is king with the occasional lean to capture the flag at the recreational level. Paintball is at a high point in it's life right now, and I think before it becomes FULLY main stream it will need a new format that appeals to recreational players and inter mural sporting organizations. Don't get me wrong, I love NPPL and PSP formats, and XBall is just amazing... but the sheer nature of those game types can alienate potential players. I've created this thread as a brainstorm session for any new ways to play paintball that would be:

-More economically friendly
-More adaptable to a TV format
-Fun to play
-Fun to watch
-Not a pain to convert
-As skill-based as possible

Heck, who knows, if we talk about possibilities we might just strike a chord for the next big thing in paintball, an XBall for all players. I know some of you might be hearing "E. Money" talking about how awesome his version of paintball is (and how it will only cost your league $1,000,000 to license it). But this motivation for a new mode isn't money like it is for "Moneyball" but instead for the sport as a whole. Discuss:


Personally, I think the main problem with paintball is how much it costs to play. Things in paintball easily add up to a ton of money spent, or in some parent's eyes "wasted". This easily gets rid of potential players, and reduces the number of people informed on the sport, in turn hindering it's progression.

***-more to say I'll wait for some responses and I'll post the rest of my thoughts.-***

Oscum Guy
10-09-2007, 02:15 PM
arggh evan money is so retarded.


cool idea tho.

applesauce
10-09-2007, 02:19 PM
well the brunt of the cost falls on paint. Im not sure what it takes to produce paint, but most places are selling from 60-80 a case. If anyone here runs a field, I would be interested in an average daily cost/profit.

as far as new games are concerned. I think there needs to be a wider 'rec-ball' draw, some kind of competition for wood ball players. pro players earn lots of money for them selfs through sponsors and tournament wins. while the average player spends half a pay check to play 1 day in the woods. I think It would be cool to see more scenario stuff on TV. where the A-5 and camo are as trendy as goofy pink do-rags and DM7s possibly even a show with characters, plot, and over all development.



Ill pause here for now, I have tons more but ill get some feed back first.

HelpDeskHustler
10-09-2007, 02:36 PM
a nice objective based game would be cool, maybe speedball could take some things from scenario to make things interesting. Enough TF2beta and halo 3 has gotten me into the objective thing.

marvin-martian
10-09-2007, 03:14 PM
honestly, i didnt read any of the posts in this thread, but is this that lame "moneyball" or whatever it was called?

pb34
10-09-2007, 05:35 PM
honestly, i didnt read any of the posts in this thread, but is this that lame "moneyball" or whatever it was called?

I've created this thread as a brainstorm session for any new ways to play paintball that would be:

-More economically friendly
-More adaptable to a TV format
-Fun to play
-Fun to watch
-Not a pain to convert
-As skill-based as possible


:)

HelpDeskHustler
10-10-2007, 02:24 AM
no marv. e. money is a douche. this is a moneyball-like response to the same problem e. money saw and tried to profit off of.

rodeoshooter
10-10-2007, 06:15 AM
I'd be curious to know what the profit margin is on paint. It is pretty expensive, but that also seems to be where fields make their money, as opposed to playing/rental fees. I understand that owning the land is expensive and they have to make money. Better to have expensive fields than no place to play at all.

As far as amateur tourneys and events (and pro I suppose), maybe limiting them to mech markers only might take some of the emhasis off of the idea that "I have to have the most expensive, fastest e-marker out there". That would also put more emphasis on skills as opposed to who can spray the most paint and get lucky and hit someone, which is what it boils down to now.

Bringing some scenario ideas into speedball wouldn't hurt...crossing the ideas together with different types of fields and objectives. Putting limits on paint you can bring into the field would increase strategy as well.

The venues need to be more appealing if it's to become a major TV attraction. An open area with a few inflateable bunkers holds no attraction whatsoever. Give me a large, multi-level enclosed area with obstacles, ladders, ramps, tunnels, different types of cover, etc.....now that would be interesting. Could be indoors or out. Install cameras in the walls, bunkers, etc. and let's see the action from close up.

I guess none of these ideas is radical, but just some adjustments that could made.

The Pumper
10-10-2007, 09:51 AM
Meh. doesnt seem realistic.

DFSniper
10-10-2007, 11:26 AM
one thing that i immediately thought of was from the "Xtreme Paintball" episode yesterday when they were talking about how Lasoya had the reflexes and moves before markers became ungodly fast. imagine a 5-man tournament w/ mechs or pumps. that would require 1) Mad Skillz, 2) Less paint, and if you changed the field format around some, (higher stands, better camera angles/helmet cams) i think it would have a decent chance of being televised.

newkid
10-10-2007, 05:13 PM
one thing that i immediately thought of was from the "Xtreme Paintball" episode yesterday when they were talking about how Lasoya had the reflexes and moves before markers became ungodly fast. imagine a 5-man tournament w/ mechs or pumps. that would require 1) Mad Skillz, 2) Less paint, and if you changed the field format around some, (higher stands, better camera angles/helmet cams) i think it would have a decent chance of being televised.

thats a good idea, but might not have enough action for some people

NeedForSpeed
10-10-2007, 06:41 PM
thats a good idea, but might not have enough action for some people

not necessarily with pumps but with mechs they're may actually be more action. People wouldn't be able to shoot perfect lanes to bunker people down. Making moves might be slightly easier and the game may actually prove to be more "eventful."
And yes..the current camera angles suck. I want one from overhead like the football one that goes over the center of the field to be able to see everyone at once and actually watch them make moves. I hate it when a move is made but instead of seeing it I was watching some guy laning or refill his hopper.

HelpDeskHustler
10-13-2007, 02:02 PM
most fields see paint as their biggest income, but if they do things right, tournaments and events can play a big role. From my experience successful fields have(in addition to good staff and facility):

-Team practice on the weekends, which gives teams a deal somehow, my favorite was the "reffing discount" where you received an additional 5 dollar discount if you signed an additional waiver which allowed you to ref team practices when you weren't playing... the hired refs (like they get paid hourly) would stand outside fields and make sure general peace happened, and would mark people who reffed, then the players could check in afterwards and if they had reffed they would receive their discount. ie, less staff paid, more staff working. reffing was the best i had ever seen, since there were generally 3+ refs on a field at a time, and all 6 fields had players on them at any time.
-Frequent tournaments. Once you get a base of dedicated players, having tournaments consistently will keep your crowd.
-a good website that is updated
-team nights/days where you set up a mini tourney that doesn't really count
-themed events (scenario fields)

once the people come for tournies paint prices shouldn't make as much of a difference in whether you survive or not.


personally I'd like to see the following types of tournaments played to try them out:
-pump xball
-restricted firepower 2flag ctf. (maybe require a certain number of pump players, or a certain number of people to have a lower paint count/rate of fire than normal)
-position assignments in any speedball gametype. Spec ops made money by bringing some order to the realm of scenario play by designating different people for different things. Requiring the use of certain types of markers or where on the field people can go would provide obstacles and also make the game more strategic and less based on the quantity of paint in the air.
I personally like the last idea the most, only because I'm sort of awestruck by my own ideas, and I wonder if they would work or not. Here some of them are. Most of my ideas are from video game game types. Keep in mind most of these would require a certain number of players to take on "handicaps" as a class, and each team would have them. These handicaps could be any of the following:
-Limited ROF
-Limited Hopper
-Limited Pods
-Pump
-Stock class
-Pistol
-Magazine fed (only the Tiberius 8/9 is suitable here IMO)
Also they could use "upper players" or positions that require some different skill, but once squinted with this skill, their position is much easier. these positions would be very limited, possibly only one guy per team. these could be:
-flatline guy/apex guy (with less paint in the air, the apex could probably be very effective)
-Dual wielder
-"shotgunner" (currently no marker for this exists to my knowledge) but it would be someone who has a burst ROF. either a marker that can fire 3-10 balls in quick bursts then requires "cooldown time" or something of another. Or a gun that is naturally slow that fires 3-10 at a time.


* Idea 1: "Quiddich"
Each team has a goal, either triggered by a reball. designate a certain number of players per team, or per offense who use these reball only guns. It could be interesting if you made the reball player/goal scorer have to use a tiberius 8 to score, meaning he/she would need to be very lucky or very good at long ranges. Pump or pistol would probably be required for the scorer since reballs are very expensive and little skill comes from shooting 300 at a target and hitting 1. IMO offense/defense would work the best, even though dual offense would work too. Offense/defense with short rounds or a time limit for the scorer's standing in one spot time would help the game move faster. each scorring would prompt all players to rejoin the field and players to reset at a start point/line. The field would be reduced, or player count would be increased so that the field feels crowded and action happens alot. The goal would be blocked from frontal shots, meaing a good side angle or close frontal shot, needs to happen to score. An apex could be given to the scorer if desired.


I'll get more down. Most are lended from halo 3, tf2, or rainbow six vegas and if you look up info about the game, the title will make sense.

-VIP(rainbow six, halo 3)
-Territories(halo 3 matchmaking variant, tf2)
-Assault(halo 3)
-Team Juggernaut(the team with the ball or flag is the only team that can score by eliminating)
-Team oddball (carrying the flag/ball gives points by basis of time, short rounds, possibly only award points for a won round -- whoever has more time wins the round)
-REAL ctf (you only score from the flag, bigger field, shorter rounds, attack and defend, possibly center flag... combo these until a fast paced game comes out)

The Pumper
10-13-2007, 03:20 PM
I dont understand why we have to change the way we play it. The way paintball is played now is fine. It should remain unchanged.

HelpDeskHustler
10-13-2007, 03:33 PM
I dont understand why we have to change the way we play it. The way paintball is played now is fine. It should remain unchanged.

-More economically friendly
-More adaptable to a TV format
-As skill-based as possible

We don't HAVE to change it, I'm simply suggesting that we do for the good of the sport. Listed above is why. Paintball on TV isn't interesting for people who haven't played. Cameras have to cover the whole field and viewers are expected to understand that they can't see the quarter sized mark. More objective based will be easier to watch on TV, and could bring paintball from the backwaters of peoples mind as "that 'violent' shooting game" to something better. It's VERY difficult to argue for the sake of paintball as a non-violent game when it seems like the message of every game that's on tv is "you can't reach your objective unless you shoot and eliminate everyone who opposes you"

The shooting part is fun, but if you allow youself to be open, I think you'll see that doing anything while avoiding being shot can be fun too. Multitasking is a very interesting concept and it could help bring more depth and interest into paintball.

DFSniper
10-13-2007, 07:52 PM
-VIP(rainbow six, halo 3)
-Territories(halo 3 matchmaking variant, tf2)
-Assault(halo 3)
-Team Juggernaut(the team with the ball or flag is the only team that can score by eliminating)
-Team oddball (carrying the flag/ball gives points by basis of time, short rounds, possibly only award points for a won round -- whoever has more time wins the round)
-REAL ctf (you only score from the flag, bigger field, shorter rounds, attack and defend, possibly center flag... combo these until a fast paced game comes out)

back in NC, ive played a lot of woods games like those: VIP/Convoy, Predator (only head/body shots count for predators), CTF/Hang the flag where when only 1 person is left on the team, the whole team gets to come back in. Guerillas- small, elite team that works to disrupt Red and Blue team at the same time. i have more, but im being kicked off the computer...

applesauce
10-14-2007, 06:13 AM
the problem with paintball/hockey/golf, etc....is that they dont cater to every social class. inner city/low income families just plain out cant afford these things. in Minnesota, if you have an afro-American player on a hockey team, your one of 10 teams in the state who do. IMO the change needs to come from the top down, ie paint and product manufacturers, then that will trickle down to the distributors, proshops,fields and ultimately the players.

HelpDeskHustler
10-14-2007, 08:46 AM
I think Paint manufactureres are doing all they can, but I doubt the same is for product manufacturers. fields have to jack prices to make some profit and keep themselves as a distributor. I know the profit margin off of an ego for planet is somewhere in the range of 200+ and for fields it's close to like 300 if sold at msrp.

marvin-martian
10-14-2007, 10:07 AM
so you want the companies to make less money? why punish them for being good businessmen?

HelpDeskHustler
10-14-2007, 11:28 AM
so you want the companies to make less money? why punish them for being good businessmen?
that profit just SEEMS like a lot compared to other stuff. I'm not sure if it is or not. I would say paintball has way too much design cost. I appreciate how dye, Planet and others all try to create something that works as well as it possibly can, but resizing and re-laying out the entire gun is way too much of a design cost for them to do it every year. On the other spectrum, smartparts only addresses Serious issues like horrible gas efficiency or manufacturing flaws, but otherwise they just let the product stay out there when it clearly has stuff to be improved on. If companies would sit between this with a product that's general design stays the same, but they release new micro versions, I think design costs could be cut effectively. It seems like every world cup each company tries to reinvent the wheel when all they really need to do is fix the bolt or reflash the board... redesign the trigger/return mechanism. I think the sport is nearing the point where guns are as light as they are going to get in aluminum, and companies will stop having to CUT THE FAT (ie redesign the whole gun) and prices will drop. Seriously... 68 grams is not a big deal, but the paintball industry has made it one. "OMG the dm8 is 5mm shorter in each direction and 100grams lighter wtfbbq." - but they just increased the production price for each gun by at least 150 dollars by doing so. Since now they will pay people who have worked all year testing and designing the whole gun.

anyway... back to the real discussion, since what is causing paintball to be expensive isn't the real question - the question is: what format of play can remain fun and very interesting while coping with high cost?

marvin-martian
10-14-2007, 11:40 AM
that profit just SEEMS like a lot compared to other stuff. I'm not sure if it is or not. I would say paintball has way too much design cost. I appreciate how dye, Planet and others all try to create something that works as well as it possibly can, but resizing and re-laying out the entire gun is way too much of a design cost for them to do it every year. On the other spectrum, smartparts only addresses Serious issues like horrible gas efficiency or manufacturing flaws, but otherwise they just let the product stay out there when it clearly has stuff to be improved on. If companies would sit between this with a product that's general design stays the same, but they release new micro versions, I think design costs could be cut effectively. It seems like every world cup each company tries to reinvent the wheel when all they really need to do is fix the bolt or reflash the board... redesign the trigger/return mechanism. I think the sport is nearing the point where guns are as light as they are going to get in aluminum, and companies will stop having to CUT THE FAT (ie redesign the whole gun) and prices will drop. Seriously... 68 grams is not a big deal, but the paintball industry has made it one. "OMG the dm8 is 5mm shorter in each direction and 100grams lighter wtfbbq." - but they just increased the production price for each gun by at least 150 dollars by doing so. Since now they will pay people who have worked all year testing and designing the whole gun.

why would they stop if they still get tons of sales? what youre saying is "buisnesses are making money due to bandwagon consumers. lets force them to not make as much money, even though theres a very small chance that the sport will expand" the companies are making products at a price the consumers demand, giving us an equilibrium price.

if you want to point a finger, blame the people who are willing to go out and purchase items at such a high price. all PE is doing is saying "you want to spend that much? sure, here you go"

HelpDeskHustler
10-14-2007, 12:38 PM
Which brings us back to the argument at hand in the first place... why do kids feel they need the newest gun? Because Slinging paint is in the top 10 cliche for "needs" as a successful team in a lot of kids' minds.

DFSniper
10-14-2007, 02:41 PM
i thought of a reason WHY paint prices are so high: shipping. wal-mart and (hopefully) your local store get sent a certain number of cases and companies know that some balls are going to break, and those cases will be sent back by the stores (if theyre good on their paint). so the only real way to drastically cut down on prices would be to cut down on how many bags/cases have breakages during shipment... and i do agree that paint prices are too high, a "better" fill used isnt worth the extra $15-25 IMO. there are plenty of companies that produce decent paint for reasonable prices (two of my favorites being Zap Primals - $40/case and the Stryker paint from wal-mart)

vikingshadow
10-14-2007, 03:09 PM
if you want to point a finger, blame the people who are willing to go out and purchase items at such a high price. all PE is doing is saying "you want to spend that much? sure, here you go"
Absolutely correct. The reason the companies do what they do is because there is a demand for it. Otherwise, the prices would be MUCH lower.
Which brings us back to the argument at hand in the first place... why do kids feel they need the newest gun? Because Slinging paint is in the top 10 cliche for "needs" as a successful team in a lot of kids' minds.
You want to see this in action? Go look at any "0-insert year here" thread and the BST threads at PBN...these kids think their nuts will fall off if they don't have the latest, greatest marker out there! Then, two months later they trade the dang thing off for something else.

I've been blaming gun whores for years for the reason new gun prices are so high, and used gun prices are so low. So long as there are people willing to trade for the "gun is greener on the other side" every other month, then there will always be a HUGE difference between buying new and buying used.
i thought of a reason WHY paint prices are so high: shipping. wal-mart and (hopefully) your local store get sent a certain number of cases and companies know that some balls are going to break, and those cases will be sent back by the stores (if theyre good on their paint). so the only real way to drastically cut down on prices would be to cut down on how many bags/cases have breakages during shipment... and i do agree that paint prices are too high, a "better" fill used isnt worth the extra $15-25 IMO. there are plenty of companies that produce decent paint for reasonable prices (two of my favorites being Zap Primals - $40/case and the Stryker paint from wal-mart)
I work pretty closely with my local field owner and I KNOW shipping is a major problem. Shipping on a pallet of paint just eats up profits like no other. That's why most field owners don't do individual orders - they'll wait for a larger order to place. Fortunately, we just found a "warehouse" of sorts within driving distance, so if we ever need anything, we can just drive and pick it up now. But you're correct as well - shipping is what raises paint so much.

Now, to the original question of the thread.
[B]-More economically friendly - shipping and handling costs, and the problem with buyers frenzy kills this - until we can control these problems, then it's never going to be totally economically friendly.
-More adaptable to a TV format It will never be as tv friendly as a sport with one large ball being used, or one object (such as a puck.) The paint is too small, and there is too much going on with the other players - it's too easy to miss a key move.
-Fun to play Multiple TYPES of paintball games during one day is the key to fun in paintball. Doing the same thing over and over gets redundant and boring...
-Fun to watch see the "Fun to play" thought...
-Not a pain to convert
-As skill-based as possible Limiting paint and the use of mechs would be about as skill-based as you can get. Maybe incorporating a target (other than humans) or multiple targets might be a trick - but then you get into the issue of paint to barrel match, dimpled paint, etc...Something along the line of the Biathalon in the Olympics.

HelpDeskHustler
10-14-2007, 03:15 PM
i thought of a reason WHY paint prices are so high: shipping. wal-mart and (hopefully) your local store get sent a certain number of cases and companies know that some balls are going to break, and those cases will be sent back by the stores (if theyre good on their paint). so the only real way to drastically cut down on prices would be to cut down on how many bags/cases have breakages during shipment... and i do agree that paint prices are too high, a "better" fill used isnt worth the extra $15-25 IMO. there are plenty of companies that produce decent paint for reasonable prices (two of my favorites being Zap Primals - $40/case and the Stryker paint from wal-mart)
the selective nature of high end paintballs lend to a higher cost due to waste, not better fill. Not to mention shipping costs for fragile paint etc. keep in mind a lot of the high end stuff comes in on average at 10 bucks less than what it's sold for (some east coast places it's more, like EMR). The paint companies have to pay workers who work on the cases, and for machines that fill them, select them and pack them. Paint is generally going to cost alot because it's produced similar to medicine capsules, but with greater attention to precision rounding and size rather than fill qty, not to mention a case has nearly 100x more capsules than the average medicine box, so regardless of the cost of the fill, it will be expensive.



again, we're straying off topic.

Nuwisha
10-18-2007, 01:31 PM
This past weekend I played in a tournament. It was 6 teams of 7 people. $70 CDN per person to enter....$20.00 from each entry went to Big Brothers/Big Sisters. Each round was a re-spawn/elimination round with a bonus for raising the opposing team's flag. Each person could go on the field with only 200 balls(included in the price of the tourny). Co2 was provided as was air (ok so the field doesn't have air yet, but they paid to fill our two 4500psi tanks, which lasted that day and the next). Each round was 15 minutes. Which ever team got the most eliminations that round(bonus 5 for raising the flag) would win that round. There was only one tie throughout the whole day. After the round robin where every team got to play every other team, there was a play off series of 10 minutes per game, no flags.

In the way of markers there was mostly the fields rental bt-4's and 98's... markers that were brought included an at-4, mr1's, an mr3, various upped bt-4's and a few speedball markers...including an ion that never made it into play.

After every round i was either out of paint or down to just a few balls left. But only having 200 for 15 min. really makes you pick your targets.

The field (Aussie Paintball, Pelham, Ontario, Canada) only has the one playing field, its 4 acres of groomed wilderness...open grass trails, a bit of woods, earth and scrub bunkers and a stream and gravel road running through the middle.

Everyone seemed to have fun and there was none of the "you had more paint and a faster gun" comments at all throughout the day.

How television friendly would this be? I have no idea...probably not very, but its a great way to get someone out to play.. I mean 50 bucks to play for almost 8 hours is a pretty good deal, ok yeah 70, but 20 went to a great cause.

If everyone hadn't been so tired we almost had a round of the other 5 teams versus ours..... we like a challange(: