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TheRedBarron
08-13-2007, 08:25 AM
RULES!

There will be no other politics threads
if you do create another one, (anywhere even the polls) it will result in a vacation.
No flaming this will also result in a vacation
No trolling... I think you know what will happen...
use your heads
Be useful (oh my bad this is just for Chris...)


This thread is here so you guys can have a civil convo about what is going on in our world, our nation, hell your home town. Make it fun, no one is wrong, no one is right, just a simple convo about the issues we all face everyday. Cant be too hard right?

If this doesn't work out it will go, so I suggest you all keep it civil.

oldironmudder
08-13-2007, 08:50 AM
War = costly
land gained from war = cheaper oil up front
oil companys get cheap oil = they jack the price up
gas prices up = angry people




Ah hell I dont even know what that was. Kinda zoned out let my fingers talk. Plus a start for the thread. :)

durrell
08-13-2007, 09:59 AM
We need to pull out of Iraq.

I'm convinced that the only person dumber than George Bush and Richard Cheney is Hillary Clinton.

I have no idea who I'm voting for next year because every one of the candidates sucks big ones.

So there you go, a few topics to discuss..lol.

vikingshadow
08-13-2007, 10:11 AM
I'm pretty fed up with American politics. There isn't a single person running that I feel could do a good job in the White House. It's become a "My checkbook is thicker than your check book" race, and with Hillary and Obama, I feel it's turning into a "Vote for the first woman," or "Vote for the cutest," candidate (you thought I was going to say black, didn't you? LOL!)

I actually here people saying they will vote for Obama because he's cute. Seriously! It makes me sick, actually. As far as Bush goes, I still think that in the future, we'll be thinking a different way about him - he's not that bad, considering some of the things that people forget to bring up with other presidents. BTW - did you know that Bush doesn't have the lowest rating in politics history? Guess who does? That's right - CONGRESS!

Vote for me. I have ideas on these things that will work, and I don't care about lobbyists, or other people's feelings. You can't please all the people all the time, so do what you would do to protect your family and yourself, and the rest of the country will fall in place...

Durrell - while I wish we could pull out, I think it'd be a BIG mistake in the long run. Great for now, but bad later on. I mean, HORRIBLY wrong....

HelpDeskHustler
08-13-2007, 10:13 AM
Hillary Clinton = dystopian. I would vote for Nader if it meant keeping her out of office.

I think we should stay in Iraq, because we did start some problems. I don't necessarily agree with the events leading up to it, but we've pissed off so many people over there that I think we should build our image, and make sure the hard work of our soldiers doesn't go down the crapper.

TRB and I had this discussion over Aim. Schools in the US suck, we need better education for children and that includes media exposure. We aren't making smart children, we're making economically stable children. The kind of people that buy when they are told to, and buy stuff they don't need.

durrell
08-13-2007, 10:42 AM
Durrell - while I wish we could pull out, I think it'd be a BIG mistake in the long run. Great for now, but bad later on. I mean, HORRIBLY wrong....

For what reason? Not that I disagree, I honestly would like to see your view on why it would be wrong. I mean I don't think we need to just like pick up and leave today, but a timetable would be nice so that the Iraqi government can start to pick up some slack. We can't be their peace keeper forever, we have other things to worry about like Iran, North Korea, and even Venezuela. I'd like to hear your point of view, because from what I remember in the past..you and I normally agree on these things. :)

marvin-martian
08-13-2007, 11:21 AM
mike huckabee needs to get more publicity.

calebh
08-13-2007, 12:26 PM
As far as Bush goes, I still think that in the future, we'll be thinking a different way about him - he's not that bad, considering some of the things that people forget to bring up with other presidents. BTW - did you know that Bush doesn't have the lowest rating in politics history? Guess who does? That's right - CONGRESS!
i think the fact that congress has done so little is due to the lack of a solid democratic majority, especially in the senate. as to bush's complete disregard for the laws of this country... well, that kind of speaks for itself.

I don't care about lobbyists, or other people's feelings
that reminds me of hilary's statement the other day. it went something like "i won't stop taking money from interest groups because they represent real people. but i won't listen to them." jon stewart had fun with it. i lol'd.

HDH, i agree completely about the schools. america's schools suck. i used to think we should privatize them, or perhaps do that voucher thing, but i've changed my mind. i don't know how to fix it, but they need to stay public, and the federal government needs to quit regulating it. that'd be a start i think.

btw, mike gravel ftw.

vikingshadow
08-13-2007, 12:42 PM
For what reason? Not that I disagree, I honestly would like to see your view on why it would be wrong. I mean I don't think we need to just like pick up and leave today, but a timetable would be nice so that the Iraqi government can start to pick up some slack. We can't be their peace keeper forever, we have other things to worry about like Iran, North Korea, and even Venezuela. I'd like to hear your point of view, because from what I remember in the past..you and I normally agree on these things. :)

No problem! But you asked for it, lol! Get ready for a long one! :devil:

I understand what you're asking and I'll try and get it from my mind to the screen here...What I mean is that we've gotten so deeply involved, that it's not in our best interest to leave until it looks like we've accomplished something else besides getting Hussein...

I think that if we leave within the next year without a list of objectives being accomplished, we've failed in the eyes of the world and lost in the eyes of the terrorists. Period - no matter what we've accomplished. By setting a time-table, we're giving the extremists some respite from the day to day smaller things (not that they are small, just not what they could be doing) they are doing - "What, they're leaving in December? We can wait that long!" Not only a break, but a chance to say, "Man, all this work is starting to pay off." They will have won.

Now, what I mean by trouble down the line is that unless we grow a HUGE sack and start using our military MIGHT the way it was intended to do (defending ourselves from foreign invaders and attacks), if we leave with them thinking they've won that part of the Jihad (trust me, they won't think it's over until we're all dead) then they will bring it to us, to our soil, because you and I know we aren't secure from these types of things no matter what they government says. As it is, we have the most powerful force in the world that can't even use it's own firepower to prove it. We're just big talkers anymore...

Here's what I think we should do. Make a list. Period. Maybe 5-6 things. Start with something like - Take control of _________ and help rebuild. Iraq forces to control afterwards. Then, go to the next one - Secure _________ and help rebuild. Iraqi forces will control when finished. So on....whatever we think the country needs. Water, food, playgrounds, schools, whatever. It can all go on the SHORT list.

After we finish our 5-6 things on the list, tell Iraq, "Here's your new country, hope you like it! We're finished, you're in control. Give us a call if you need some advice." THEN get the hell out of there. That way, we've accomplished our goals, not let the terrorists win, and if they DO come back, then it's not on us anymore.

The only plans being given right now is, "Set a deadline. GTFO of Iraq." That's not accomplishing anything except giving us another mark in the loss column and opening us up for attack in the future. BUT it's going to take someone who will tell the lobbyists and congress to shut up and get the hell out. We aren't cops, we aren't friendly anymore. Leave us alone and let us do our job the way we're supposed to do it.

Here's a more down to Earth example. Most teachers try to take care of problems in their classroom on their own. However, our hands are tied - we can't use the tools we know to work, because the school board/administration is afraid of lawsuits and looking bad. BUT, in the meantime, class is crappy because of the disruptions, no actual learning time, etc. So, as a last resort, the student disrupting class is sent to the office, where he/she gets TOLD to straighten up and fly right or else. Now, didn't the teacher just do that themselves? It's all talk, and that student, along with his terrorist friends all know it and don't care anymore.

Now, substitute the American soldier for the teacher, Congress/president/lobbyists for principal and the students with the bad guys in the world... see where I'm going here?

I think that we're all talk. And so does the rest of the world.

tl;dr: I understand what you're asking and I'll try and get it from my mind to the screen here...What I mean is that we've gotten so deeply involved, that it's not in our best interest to leave until it looks like we've accomplished something else besides getting Hussein...

I think that if we leave within the next year without a list of objectives being accomplished, we've failed in the eyes of the world and lost in the eyes of the terrorists. Period - no matter what we've accomplished. By setting a time-table, we're giving the extremists some respite from the day to day smaller things (not that they are small, just not what they could be doing) they are doing - "What, they're leaving in December? We can wait that long!" Not only a break, but a chance to say, "Man, all this work is starting to pay off." They will have won.

Now, what I mean by trouble down the line is that unless we grow a HUGE sack and start using our military MIGHT the way it was intended to do (defending ourselves from foreign invaders and attacks), if we leave with them thinking they've won that part of the Jihad (trust me, they won't think it's over until we're all dead) then they will bring it to us, to our soil, because you and I know we aren't secure from these types of things no matter what they government says. As it is, we have the most powerful force in the world that can't even use it's own firepower to prove it. We're just big talkers anymore...

Here's what I think we should do. Make a list. Period. Maybe 5-6 things. Start with something like - Take control of _________ and help rebuild. Iraq forces to control afterwards. Then, go to the next one - Secure _________ and help rebuild. Iraqi forces will control when finished. So on....whatever we think the country needs. Water, food, playgrounds, schools, whatever. It can all go on the SHORT list.

After we finish our 5-6 things on the list, tell Iraq, "Here's your new country, hope you like it! We're finished, you're in control. Give us a call if you need some advice." THEN get the hell out of there. That way, we've accomplished our goals, not let the terrorists win, and if they DO come back, then it's not on us anymore.

The only plans being given right now is, "Set a deadline. GTFO of Iraq." That's not accomplishing anything except giving us another mark in the loss column and opening us up for attack in the future. BUT it's going to take someone who will tell the lobbyists and congress to shut up and get the hell out. We aren't cops, we aren't friendly anymore. Leave us alone and let us do our job the way we're supposed to do it.

Here's a more down to Earth example. Most teachers try to take care of problems in their classroom on their own. However, our hands are tied - we can't use the tools we know to work, because the school board/administration is afraid of lawsuits and looking bad. BUT, in the meantime, class is crappy because of the disruptions, no actual learning time, etc. So, as a last resort, the student disrupting class is sent to the office, where he/she gets TOLD to straighten up and fly right or else. Now, didn't the teacher just do that themselves? It's all talk, and that student, along with his terrorist friends all know it and don't care anymore.

Now, substitute the American soldier for the teacher, Congress/president/lobbyists for principal and the students with the bad guys in the world... see where I'm going here?

I think that we're all talk. And so does the rest of the world.

HelpDeskHustler
08-13-2007, 12:46 PM
For what reason? Not that I disagree, I honestly would like to see your view on why it would be wrong. I mean I don't think we need to just like pick up and leave today, but a timetable would be nice so that the Iraqi government can start to pick up some slack. We can't be their peace keeper forever, we have other things to worry about like Iran, North Korea, and even Venezuela. I'd like to hear your point of view, because from what I remember in the past..you and I normally agree on these things. :)
I THINK (correct me if I'm wrong) what vike is saying is that if we leave without eliminating hostility, the hostility will grow back, even more pissed off in the long run. The only real question is, are we removing more hostility than we are making by being in Iraq. If we could prove that things are infact getting worse, it may be wiser to leave, but we've already started the process and from what I can tell, things ARE getting better. Why not just finish the problem and stay a bit longer?

Drefish99
08-13-2007, 12:48 PM
Bush made the mistake and actually played into the hands of Iran. Iran knew that with Saddam out of office one political party would side with Iran to tower forces over the other political parties of Iraq but we got in the middle of it all. The only way to keep peace is to unfortunately get Iran involved and that will only legitimatize any party that goes to bed with Iran. That being said if we pull out of Iraq there will be a power vacuum in the area. This will only empower the insurgency that is out to come after big ol' America and come after us here at home. Us being there still makes me feel better than it being here in my back yard. This is from an uncle that has a nephew currently serving his 2nd tour.

vikingshadow
08-13-2007, 12:48 PM
that reminds me of hilary's statement the other day. it went something like "i won't stop taking money from interest groups because they represent real people. but i won't listen to them." jon stewart had fun with it. i lol'd.

Hahahaha! Sounds like her. I, however, DON'T think the lobbyists speak for real people. Only business, which is exactly what this country is turning into. We may as well be called United States of America, Inc.

HDH, i agree completely about the schools. america's schools suck. i used to think we should privatize them, or perhaps do that voucher thing, but i've changed my mind. i don't know how to fix it, but they need to stay public, and the federal government needs to quit regulating it. that'd be a start i think.

I personally don't think the schools suck. Nor should they be privatized. I think the government should stay the heck away, let teachers teach the way they know how to and stop relying so much on test scores, because EVERYONE knows that's a crap way to judge progress. I also think that frivalous lawsuits against schools should have major penalties AGAINST to suit bringer if the school is found innocent of the charge. Stop giving these nasty, lazy parents a golden ticket....

I had a friend teacher (has taught 37 years) and I spoke with my dad about this (he's also a teacher.) They both said that school started going downhill when they started getting parents involved in it. Once that happened, teachers couldn't teach anymore - instead, it became more like daycare.

durrell
08-13-2007, 01:49 PM
Here's what I think we should do. Make a list. Period. Maybe 5-6 things. Start with something like - Take control of _________ and help rebuild. Iraq forces to control afterwards. Then, go to the next one - Secure _________ and help rebuild. Iraqi forces will control when finished. So on....whatever we think the country needs. Water, food, playgrounds, schools, whatever. It can all go on the SHORT list.

After we finish our 5-6 things on the list, tell Iraq, "Here's your new country, hope you like it! We're finished, you're in control. Give us a call if you need some advice." THEN get the hell out of there. That way, we've accomplished our goals, not let the terrorists win, and if they DO come back, then it's not on us anymore.

The only plans being given right now is, "Set a deadline. GTFO of Iraq." That's not accomplishing anything except giving us another mark in the loss column and opening us up for attack in the future. BUT it's going to take someone who will tell the lobbyists and congress to shut up and get the hell out. We aren't cops, we aren't friendly anymore. Leave us alone and let us do our job the way we're supposed to do it.
.

I can definitely, 100 percent agree on that. I've been saying the entire time that we needed to stop being so worried about being politically correct and start worrying about getting the job done. People complain we're not getting the job done, but then they complain they don't want civilian casualties. Well my thing is this..when extremists are mixed in with the civilians, what is to be expected? We have innocent troops dying everyday to fight for them, and it's my belief that they should be able to use the tactics they need to rid the country of as many terrorists as possible.

So basically what you're saying Vike, is to initiate a plan to get out by doing things to build up their infrastructure and take out more terrorists..instead of setting with no set plan like we are now. That definitely sounds a lot better than the current situation to me..:thumbup:

calebh
08-13-2007, 05:02 PM
Hahahaha! Sounds like her. I, however, DON'T think the lobbyists speak for real people. Only business, which is exactly what this country is turning into. We may as well be called United States of America, Inc.agreed

I personally don't think the schools suck. Nor should they be privatized. I think the government should stay the heck away, let teachers teach the way they know how to and stop relying so much on test scores, because EVERYONE knows that's a crap way to judge progress. I also think that frivalous lawsuits against schools should have major penalties AGAINST to suit bringer if the school is found innocent of the charge. Stop giving these nasty, lazy parents a golden ticket....

I had a friend teacher (has taught 37 years) and I spoke with my dad about this (he's also a teacher.) They both said that school started going downhill when they started getting parents involved in it. Once that happened, teachers couldn't teach anymore - instead, it became more like daycare.ya, my parents (both teach) don't like the parents. i agree with you on everything except the state of our schools. lol. our school sucks, anyway. i think it's the texas pro-business, no-tax attitude, so the state barely funds the schools, and then we get bad administration. i had an interesting run-in with our high school's administrators this past year concerning my schedule. it would have made a great dilbert strip.

vikingshadow
08-13-2007, 05:35 PM
Exactly right, Durrell. Sure, get out - but NOT until we accomplish something that is tangible first - that would indicate success, that is.

Unfortunately, on the school issue, the only problems you hear about, are the people who, well, have problems with the schools. You don't hear from the hundreds of thousands of people who are doing ok and are actually enjoying the school system. I personally had a great experience in school and I know several others who did as well. That's part of the reason I teach right now.

So, the issue is keep the government out, but risk not having the funding which would be crappy, or keep the government in, and risk not having funding like in our current system - which is crappy. So, either way, it's crappy!

HelpDeskHustler
08-13-2007, 07:55 PM
I can definitely, 100 percent agree on that. I've been saying the entire time that we needed to stop being so worried about being politically correct and start worrying about getting the job done. People complain we're not getting the job done, but then they complain they don't want civilian casualties. Well my thing is this..when extremists are mixed in with the civilians, what is to be expected? We have innocent troops dying everyday to fight for them, and it's my belief that they should be able to use the tactics they need to rid the country of as many terrorists as possible.
"He who fights monsters should ensure that in the process he does not become one himself."

- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

vikingshadow
08-14-2007, 04:46 AM
Sometimes, it takes a monster to kill a monster.

HelpDeskHustler
08-14-2007, 07:27 AM
"V: What was done to me was monstrous.
Evey Hammond: And they created a monster."


For some reason I felt like Vike's response was a quote too... so I think a quote war is in order.
http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/images/805/805_image_04.jpg

vikingshadow
08-14-2007, 02:32 PM
Sorry! I was at work all day and this is the first I've been able to get on the internet...

Hmmmmmmmm, how about........

Is it better to out-monster the monster, or be quietly devoured?

- Friedrich Nietzsche

You know the real meaning of PEACE only if you have been through the war

- Kosovar

HelpDeskHustler
08-14-2007, 09:46 PM
oh... i just got F'd in the a.

vikingshadow
08-15-2007, 04:37 AM
That's alright - I left a 20 on the nightstand.....