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vikingshadow
02-03-2006, 03:44 AM
We had this thread in the old forum, and I thought it was a good one. For the new guys coming on here, they can see some of the "discussions" going on about paintball and make a good choice based on reasonable debates regarding different "hot" subjects in paintball.

Now, let's keep this to a DEBATE style, not an attack and flame style!

First topic:

Ramping (within set limits) in events or at fields that allow it and everyone has the opportunity to use it.

Begin and enjoy!

QAZ123
02-03-2006, 04:20 AM
Ramping as long as it's controlled I don't mind. I do like the psp rules to cap it at 15 bps. I really don't think it should be in recball though unless you are going against people of equal experience that are ramping also! I wouldn't mind sometime going out and playing with my ramping on PSP setting's but I guess it really doesn't matter as my timmy shoot's fast enough as it is so I dunno!

My local field put a stop to it because they found out that there insurance doesn't cover it and they would have to pay a lot more in order to have it covered! That was also the heated debate on two regional tourney series in IN/KY (ICC and CTS) as the promoter's would have to buy extra insurance to have psp setting's and from what I understood it's a lot!

JB.

durrell
02-03-2006, 05:11 AM
As long as ramping is kept at PSP level and chronoed in, I like playing with it. Most people can pull 15BPS on semi anyway..what difference does it make if it's a bit easier? I like using ramping..

kevdupuis
02-03-2006, 06:02 AM
My own thought is that ramping should never have been allowed in the first place, and all the teams and players that were illegally using ramping boards should have been heavily fined and banned from tournement play until the fines were paid.

DFSniper
02-03-2006, 06:06 AM
i think ramping shouldnt be allowed, because then the game wouldnt be as skill-based because everyone is shooting 15bps (by PSP rules), so you have a slow team shooting at 15 instead of 10 or whatever and a fast team shooting at 15 instead of 18 or so. sure, it makes the game more equal, but if you havent figured it out yet, life aint fair!

DexGtr
02-03-2006, 06:27 AM
ramping is ok in tourneys, i think they did this not to win or make it more easy for the weak team to win but to make for good entertainment. Remember paintball is trying to capture the mainstream media...and a bunch of guys hiding around shooting slow isn't that exciting compared to both teams shooting 15 bps continously.

ramping in recbll is a totally different matter...IMO it shouldn't be allowed, because there are alot of new players and most of them aren't ued to being bonus balled with 15 bps. :D

DRAGON
02-03-2006, 08:06 AM
Ramping you say? Makes the little guys feel like they have the skills of the big boys. Keeps the unskilled where they're at because why work at something like walking, raking or twitching, ect, the trigger when you can have full auto at the touch of a button and rationalize it with a cool name like 'RAMPING'? If you say it's not full auto, you're in a technical state of denial. Now all of the people that wanted to be cool by saying full auto is bad but really wanted to use it have an excuse to shoot full auto. I don't really mind if other players use it or full auto, modes, ect, for that matter. It just helps me to develop my skills by being at a slight disadvantage since I don't need to use any of that. All of the fields I used in Michigan allowed everything anyways so I'm used to it -

vikingshadow
02-03-2006, 02:55 PM
Ok, my opinion time...

I'm all for ramping at tournaments that allow ramping. In a tournament, you expect the other players to be at the same level as you as far as equipment goes, so ramping wouldn't be an issue for anyone in that division. What happens then is that people suddenly STOP worrying about your finger speed, and start thinking strategy.

I've mentioned that there is no TRUE semi anymore (in electric guns and mechs, not pump!!!) with people tweaking their microswitches, getting special triggers, setting those triggers at different areas in the frames all to get the fastest trigger speed. All ramping breaks down to is adding shots per pull. It's been proven that even in "semi", with triggers set up to get the maximum amount of speed possible, it adds shots. Most people can't hear or notice them because it's much more subtle, but it does. So people who are too lazy to learn to walk fast isn't a good arguement for me. Also, personally, I never really thought of walking the trigger fast as a "skill." Shooting accurately, knowing where and when to move, etc. are skills. Walking a trigger super fast is a circus act, IMHO...something you TRAIN your fingers to do.

Ramping in rec - NO WAY. Uh uh. Not fair - UNLESS you are playing fellow tournament ballers only, and everyone agrees to it.

Ok, next topic since this one died down much faster than I thought. (Feel free to add to it though!!!)

Speedball versus Woodsball. Which is better? (Hahahaha! Loaded question!!!

Debate on, and keep it civil! And give reasons for your opinion!

marvin-martian
02-03-2006, 03:21 PM
i think ramping shouldnt be allowed, because then the game wouldnt be as skill-based because everyone is shooting 15bps (by PSP rules), so you have a slow team shooting at 15 instead of 10 or whatever and a fast team shooting at 15 instead of 18 or so. sure, it makes the game more equal, but if you havent figured it out yet, life aint fair!
i think ramping keeps games MORE skill based. makes it a level playing field in terms of shooting speed, which makes the players have to move faster, tighter, and more accurate. how does not allowing ramping make it equal? without it, players shoot differant speeds. the team that can shoot faster has a better chance of getting an opposing player out just because of the sheer amout of paint in the air. ramping gives each team an equal chance.

colonel_moo
02-03-2006, 03:53 PM
well, i believe ramping should be allowed. its the best anti-cheating tool available right now. 15 bps is 15 bps, theres no way to change that. without ramping, you can get a cheater board/chip and gain a huge advatage over your competition, without any easy way to catch you. many teams have cheated in tournaments without being caught, and if theres a 15 bps cap nobody is cheating. also, by making ramping legal, there isnt a whole lot teams can do to cheat anymore. if all the old styles of cheating are legal, and everybody can use them, theres no way to cheat. in semi auto, theres many ways to cheat.

sure its a drawback if you can shoot faster than 15 bps on semi (which i can, i can shoot about 17), but just suck it up, and learn to shoot accurately instead of accuracy by volume.

bigred76
02-03-2006, 04:19 PM
I personally like both types of play (woodball and speedball). Some people will tell you that they are not alike at all, and I have to agree with them to a point. Woodsball gives paintball an entirely different flavor, and I find the change enjoyable. Now, I personally woodsball more than speedball because it's just plain cheaper....no field fees or air fees. It's all what you are into and like, though. I'm a paintballer, and like both.

I like the ramping modes. Just like speedball and woodsball, it puts a different flavor into the paintball mix. Same goes for NXL mode.

DRAGON
02-03-2006, 04:30 PM
........... What happens then is that people suddenly STOP worrying about your finger speed, and start thinking strategy.

So are you saying that ramping is for those that do not posess skills such as patting their head and rubbing their belly or vise versa? :rolleyes:

If you cannot concentrate on anticipating where you and/or your opponent will go next or stay, aiming, pulling/walking/whatever the trigger and also the possibilities of taking chances(ie:balls), you lack the skills of a good baller. If so, you need to work on your skills. The only concentrations that I dwell on are anticipating where I and/or my opponent will go next or stay and possibilities of taking chances when in play. Pulling the trigger and aiming are just a natural thing now and I don't have to even ponder them at all. It's like walking or running to me, I've done it so much it's just natural -

.........It's been proven that even in "semi", with triggers set up to get the maximum amount of speed possible, it adds shots. Most people can't hear or notice them because it's much more subtle, but it does. So people who are too lazy to learn to walk fast isn't a good arguement for me.

That's either bounce, ramping or cheater boards. Boards do not add shots unless they are programed to do so or are bouncing. This can be graphed by perfect consistent shot patterns or irratic shot patterns. Irratic patterns reflect the integral shots of a human, perfect shot patterns reflect programed or electronic aided shot patterns -

.........Also, personally, I never really thought of walking the trigger fast as a "skill." Shooting accurately, knowing where and when to move, etc. are skills. Walking a trigger super fast is a circus act, IMHO...something you TRAIN your fingers to do.

Please read that statement again Vik lol. :rolleyes: It's like saying that to be a good motocross rider all you need is to know which way to turn the handle bars, what direction you're going next, shift gears and use the brakes. Twisting the throttle is just a circus act, it's just something you train your wrist to do lol. I think ramping, bouncing and full auto are the circus act because it takes no skill at all to do -

..........Ramping in rec - NO WAY. Uh uh. Not fair - UNLESS you are playing fellow tournament ballers only, and everyone agrees to it..........

This is what gets me about tourney players.....y'all think that pros only exist in your little tourney world. Why fair in tourneys and not in rec? Because it's now in the rules of tourney play and rec has less stipulations and technicalities? It gets me when people spew the words, "It's illegal". You can bet your hiney that it's some tourney player telling someone about some sort of rule that doesn't even apply to the majority of participants of paintball which are recballers -

vikingshadow
02-03-2006, 05:17 PM
My turn! :D

So are you saying that ramping is for those that do not posess skills such as patting their head and rubbing their belly or vise versa? :rolleyes:

Not saying that at all. Nope. What I'm saying is that with a field that is now even in the realm of speed per second, then a person can stop thinking about how fast they should shoot, or how fast someone else is shooting and spend that split second thinking about something more important. Sure, people can think two things or more at once, but why do it when you don't have too?

If you cannot concentrate on anticipating where you and/or your opponent will go next or stay, aiming, pulling/walking/whatever the trigger and also the possibilities of taking chances(ie:balls), you lack the skills of a good baller. If so, you need to work on your skills. The only concentrations that I dwell on are anticipating where I and/or my opponent will go next or stay and possibilities of taking chances when in play. Pulling the trigger and aiming are just a natural thing now and I don't have to even ponder them at all. It's like walking or running to me, I've done it so much it's just natural -

Again, not what I was saying. The army has a saying, work smarter not harder. Granted, if your fingers are trained (see lower down!) and it's automatic, then sure, it's no problem. But what we're seeing is that younger, less skilled players are developing inconsistancy and bad habits, chasing the magic "carrot" in finger speed. Anticipation, aiming, etc are the skills needed, but that's NOT what this was about.

You can't tell me that someone who ramps doesn't have these skills. They are required, just as much, if not more than before! Because now, the speed at which the balls are flying is a constant, if played correctly and legally at the 15 bps. Before, it was a variable.

That's either bounce, ramping or cheater boards. Boards do not add shots unless they are programed to do so or are bouncing. This can be graphed by perfect consistent shot patterns or irratic shot patterns. Irratic patterns reflect the integral shots of a human, perfect shot patterns reflect programed or electronic aided shot patterns -

I said nothing about boards. I said triggers and microswitches. And yes, when you tweak a microswitch, you add a minute bit of electronic bounce to it, and when fired over a specific length of time, it creates larger numbers of shots than what are being pulled. If you want TRUE semi, you CAN NOT be shooting an electric gun.


Please read that statement again Vik lol. :rolleyes: It's like saying that to be a good motocross rider all you need is to know which way to turn the handle bars, what direction you're going next, shift gears and use the brakes. Twisting the throttle is just a circus act, it's just something you train your wrist to do lol. I think ramping, bouncing and full auto are the circus act because it takes no skill at all to do -

I stick to my guns on that statement... but let me explain why. It's not skill to move your fingers back and forth very fast. It does take training (not unlike what is needed with a circus act.) The SKILL comes from the anticipation, the aim and the field playing that you mentioned earlier. Are you saying that someone who can't walk a trigger fast has no skill then? That those who use ramping ONLY because they want to shoot back as many balls as being shot at them are unskilled players? That the only TRUE ballers are those that can move their fingers fast? If so, I'm poop outta luck, because with my short fat fingers, I can hardly walk 14 bps in a string of more than a few seconds.

Twisting a throttle and turning a handle bar are not circus acts, because there isn't a race to see who can twist it 22 twists per second, nor turn the bars 18 whatevers per second. I just happen to think that instead of worrying about how fast someone can move their fingers, a person could be out snapping, running drills that help with accuracy, learning to anticipate. I think that with ramping, a person doesn't have to concentrate on gun speed anymore and can concentrate on other things. So what? Not having fast fingers doesn't take the skill away from other areas...

This is what gets me about tourney players.....y'all think that pros only exist in your little tourney world. Why fair in tourneys and not in rec? Because it's now in the rules of tourney play and rec has less stipulations and technicalities? It gets me when people spew the words, "It's illegal". You can bet your hiney that it's some tourney player telling someone about some sort of rule that doesn't even apply to the majority of participants of paintball which are recballers -

I think this is a very unfair statement. The question was directed towards EVENTS or AT FIELDS THAT ALLOW IT (I guess I should have said sanctioned tournaments.) My statement was meant to be directed towards the newer players on the field and in the sport, not towards the salty dogs that have been rec'ing it for years. I may have left a bit out, for which I'm sorry that I didn't clarify, however, to generalize that the TOURNEY players are conceited and think that rec is below them is not correct.

And that's what gets me about rec players. They think that when people mention rec ballers, they assume it's about them. What about the majority of the players who are new to the sport that are playing, and make up the vast majority of rec ball? Granted, in the larger areas that you play in, especially in Florida and back East and up North, maybe the majority of players are older more experienced rec players, but most everywhere else, they're newbs - fresh off the street and just starting to play.

Put in that light, you can see that generalizations work both ways and yet the tournament players are the scourge of the paintball world. I must hear "My brother can take you out" or "I can own your *** in the woods" at least a dozen times a week from rec players, without any provocation from me. Most of the time, I'm not even thinking about paintball when it happens! It could be from someone who sees my screen saver, or sees a paintball magazine I have, or they're having a conversation with someone else. The point is, to bring up the tournament thing was a little out on the ledge there. Both types of players have attitudes.

My statement that it shouldn't be used in rec play was due to the fact that 95% (just a number thrown out there - I have no idea of the actual percentage) of rec players are brand new to the game, use mechs, rentals or similar such guns. To throw in a player with full tournament gear which includes the latest in ramping software, I feel they should NEVER use it against those players. I will say that my statement was incomplete - I meant to add in there "or if anyone you're playing agrees with it." That would include any and all players, not just tournament players.

The main thing about paintball is that we should be promoting the sport, not running people away. If a new person gets lit up with 15 bps in the same exact spot, the likelyhood of them wanting to play any longer is pretty small. Now, an experienced person, whether rec or tourney just to clarify, is going to expect that a lot of paint is coming, and about how much they could get hit by. They play their cover much better and therefore are more prepared. New guys are running all over the place and hanging way out of their cover. THAT'S what I meant by that statement -

FredPo
02-03-2006, 06:59 PM
I'm very ambiguous regarding Ramping. I think it's fine to use it, but if it was eliminated from psp, xball, ect, I wouldn't care. Paintball is paintball to me.

Fred

colonel_moo
02-03-2006, 07:07 PM
i dont get why people dont want it to be used in recball. first of all, most people playing speedball have a ramping capable gun. even entry level players have ramping available to them in the ion etc. plus, ramping actually makes me shoot SLOWER... which would actually be a disadvantage to me, not the other players.

sure ramping to 20 or unlimited isnt fair, but thats usually not the case.

DRAGON
02-03-2006, 07:47 PM
Well Vik…….this sucks! You can type at 200wpm and I only 20wpm. I’m at a disadvantage. I need a ramping keyboard so I can keep up. Still does not discourage me from a retort though – ;)

My turn! :D

Not saying that at all. Nope. What I'm saying is that with a field that is now even in the realm of speed per second, then a person can stop thinking about how fast they should shoot, or how fast someone else is shooting and spend that split second thinking about something more important. Sure, people can think two things or more at once, but why do it when you don't have too?

While in play? Get real Vik……no one’s specifically thinking about how fast they’re shooting or how fast anyone else is for that matter lol. Realistically speaking, that sounds like a bunch of malarkey. Please give ballers a bit more credit than being a Jethro thinking slowly about every little detail instead of the essentials. It’s just not fair, Let’s keep this rational, I’m not a 10 year old -

Again, not what I was saying. The army has a saying, work smarter not harder. Granted, if your fingers are trained (see lower down!) and it's automatic, then sure, it's no problem. But what we're seeing is that younger, less skilled players are developing inconsistancy and bad habits, chasing the magic "carrot" in finger speed. Anticipation, aiming, etc are the skills needed, but that's NOT what this was about.

You can't tell me that someone who ramps doesn't have these skills. They are required, just as much, if not more than before! Because now, the speed at which the balls are flying is a constant, if played correctly and legally at the 15 bps. Before, it was a variable.

So the army doesn’t want people to work hard? They’d rather have you get around issues rather than acquire the skills to be the best all around?
PFC: Eh sarge, I wanna use that red dot site rather than the iron sites.
Sarge: If the battery goes dead where does that leave you private? Unskilled and dead on the battle field because you had no idea how to proficiently use what came equipped with your firearm. GET DOWN AND GIVE ME 50 PRIVATE AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU JUST SAID!!!

The magic carrot in essence is ramping making noobs think that it’s a fix for actual skill. What if said noob’s marker broke down and God forbid they had to use a marker that had no ramping? They’re ‘working smarter’ took them back to below square 1 because they didn’t learn to crawl before they learned to walk…..er….um……ramp.

Here we go with that legal thingy again……rec ballers don’t need to shoot at 15bps do they? Even if you are in a tourney your marker has to be able to be set at 15bps and if it surpasses that, you can’t play. Where those rules pertain anyways. So if your marker is capped at 15bps and you’re walking the trigger, it’s not going to surpass that ROF no matter how skilled your magic fingers are -

I said nothing about boards. I said triggers and microswitches. And yes, when you tweak a microswitch, you add a minute bit of electronic bounce to it, and when fired over a specific length of time, it creates larger numbers of shots than what are being pulled. If you want TRUE semi, you CAN NOT be shooting an electric gun.

But boards have everything to do with switches and triggers. Remove 1 from the formula and no cookie. They all work in unison do they not? The board is what makes the marker shoot and it does not magically add shots unless it’s programmed to do so or bouncing. Please provide me with data showing this alleged enormously larger amount of shots being added.

If what you say was true, then bounce would need to be legal in tourneys for electro markers because technically, all electro’s bounce no matter what correct? -

DRAGON
02-03-2006, 07:48 PM
I stick to my guns on that statement... but let me explain why. It's not skill to move your fingers back and forth very fast. It does take training (not unlike what is needed with a circus act.) The SKILL comes from the anticipation, the aim and the field playing that you mentioned earlier. Are you saying that someone who can't walk a trigger fast has no skill then? That those who use ramping ONLY because they want to shoot back as many balls as being shot at them are unskilled players? That the only TRUE ballers are those that can move their fingers fast? If so, I'm poop outta luck, because with my short fat fingers, I can hardly walk 14 bps in a string of more than a few seconds.

Twisting a throttle and turning a handle bar are not circus acts, because there isn't a race to see who can twist it 22 twists per second, nor turn the bars 18 whatevers per second. I just happen to think that instead of worrying about how fast someone can move their fingers, a person could be out snapping, running drills that help with accuracy, learning to anticipate. I think that with ramping, a person doesn't have to concentrate on gun speed anymore and can concentrate on other things. So what? Not having fast fingers doesn't take the skill away from other areas...

Since you’re relating this to the circus, please let me see a vid of you walking a tight rope 50 feet above the ground since no skills are needed lol.

I never mentioned that someone that could not walk a trigger at extremely fast rof’s has no skill at all. I did mention that ramping is just a substitute for a skill that can be acquired by anyone that isn’t a slacker. They are unskilled at walking the trigger, yes. Since I cannot run as fast as some of these other fella’s, me tinks all fast running players should have 50lb weights attached to their legs so we can even out my less skilled running ability. Me tinks it’s only fair since I can walk a trigger faster than them and they have an affirmative action ramping board in their marker. Sound fair? Vik…..I’m sorry about your stubby little fingers though they should actually be an advantage since they are shorter and should take less time to move back and forth as someone that has longer fingers. Think about that for a while………

You either completely missed or ignored the motocross rider metaphor. I will not expound on the metaphor any further if you didn’t get it…..sry -

I think this is a very unfair statement. The question was directed towards EVENTS or AT FIELDS THAT ALLOW IT (I guess I should have said sanctioned tournaments.) My statement was meant to be directed towards the newer players on the field and in the sport, not towards the salty dogs that have been rec'ing it for years. I may have left a bit out, for which I'm sorry that I didn't clarify, however, to generalize that the TOURNEY players are conceited and think that rec is below them is not correct.

And that's what gets me about rec players. They think that when people mention rec ballers, they assume it's about them. What about the majority of the players who are new to the sport that are playing, and make up the vast majority of rec ball? Granted, in the larger areas that you play in, especially in Florida and back East and up North, maybe the majority of players are older more experienced rec players, but most everywhere else, they're newbs - fresh off the street and just starting to play.

Put in that light, you can see that generalizations work both ways and yet the tournament players are the scourge of the paintball world. I must hear "My brother can take you out" or "I can own your *** in the woods" at least a dozen times a week from rec players, without any provocation from me. Most of the time, I'm not even thinking about paintball when it happens! It could be from someone who sees my screen saver, or sees a paintball magazine I have, or they're having a conversation with someone else. The point is, to bring up the tournament thing was a little out on the ledge there. Both types of players have attitudes.

My statement that it shouldn't be used in rec play was due to the fact that 95% (just a number thrown out there - I have no idea of the actual percentage) of rec players are brand new to the game, use mechs, rentals or similar such guns. To throw in a player with full tournament gear which includes the latest in ramping software, I feel they should NEVER use it against those players. I will say that my statement was incomplete - I meant to add in there "or if anyone you're playing agrees with it." That would include any and all players, not just tournament players.

The main thing about paintball is that we should be promoting the sport, not running people away. If a new person gets lit up with 15 bps in the same exact spot, the likelyhood of them wanting to play any longer is pretty small. Now, an experienced person, whether rec or tourney just to clarify, is going to expect that a lot of paint is coming, and about how much they could get hit by. They play their cover much better and therefore are more prepared. New guys are running all over the place and hanging way out of their cover. THAT'S what I meant by that statement -

I have a bit of sympathy for noobs but not totally a nice guy about it. I will not unload on them but at the same time think if they can’t stand the heat it’s time to get out and move on to skateboarding or something more safe. <------sarcasm

…..TOURNEY players are conceited and think that rec is below them is not correct….. Sry but I beg to differ on that one. I really think there is a big gap of resentment between woods and tourney players. Isn’t that why you brought that subject up just recently in this thread?

Lemme tell ya, this is in no way a paralleled comparison to the current action on the field but: My first game was with 30 others including myself that never played a day in our lives. We had Crossman spot markers which had 12 grams in the handle and a 6 shot chamber that had to be removed every 6 shots, reloaded and put back into the marker. It looks just like a .357 magnum. The opposing team consisted of 30 players of mostly seasoned players that had pumps with 7oz constant air and 50rd hoppers. We had our asses handed to us every game except 1 all day. For most of us, it was one of the best times we had had in a long time. It did not discourage 20 of us from forming our own team and playing together many times afterwards –

As I stated earlier, if you can’t stand the heat, it’s time to move on to something else. I don’t want to discourage people from playing the sport but at the same time if they’re going to be passive in an aggressive sport, maybe they shouldn’t be there in the first place. Paintball will survive without them. Let me add this, the bully’s on the fields get theirs eventually. I take a personal satisfaction in picking them out of a crowd and lighting them up, I don’t think I stand alone on that one either -

WhatThaSmurf
02-03-2006, 07:49 PM
I'm so ADD-ing right now and you guys are killing me, because I have ready everything.

2 sentences at a time! then I lose my focus.

QAZ123
02-03-2006, 07:50 PM
If all the dang marker companies would have kept the "mutual agreement" to leave the electronic marker's at 12bps we wouldn't have half the problem's at any level of play whether tourney or recball but no we couldn't do that we had to start the rate of fire war instead. Smart part's is to blame for both of them they were the first one's to have a stock marker (99-00 shocker) to ramp to 12 bps right out of the box and I believe were the first one's to raise the 12 bps limit (actually the older defiant might be the culprit but not positive) so all the other companies had to keep up and so it began!

I'm just glad my field has dealt with the situation. No ramping and also if more experienced player's want to play with or against rental marker or low end marker guy's they have to play hopper ball which was a great idea!

JB.

QAZ123
02-03-2006, 07:56 PM
. We had Crossman spot markers which had 12 grams in the handle and a 6 shot chamber that had to be removed every 6 shots, reloaded and put back into the marker. It looks just like a .357 magnum.
It was a Crossman 3357. TigerDave had one for awhile but I think he sold it! Pretty cool though except I think it took 50 caliber paintball's but I could be wrong!

JB.

DRAGON
02-03-2006, 07:59 PM
Yes they were .50 cals and we carried the paint in our pockets in a baggie lol -

QAZ123
02-03-2006, 08:08 PM
Yes they were .50 cals and we carried the paint in our pockets in a baggie lol -

OMG that's nuts! Here I am wondering how they coped without having speedcap's on there ten round tubes back in the day that I never even thought about actually not having tubes either lol!

JB.

vikingshadow
02-04-2006, 04:22 AM
Ok, Ok, I think that Dragon and I could go around and around on this forever and we would never agree on this...which is what a good debate is all about. However, it's 7:20 in the morning, and I'm too tired at the moment to hit 200 words per second! LOL!

I think we need to move on the the NEXT question here....anyone??? (Geez, I may have to limit it to 50 words per posting, hahaha!)

QAZ123
02-04-2006, 06:15 AM
*runs up, bunkers Vikingshadow and Dragon, runs off laughing like a mad man*:D

K I'm ready for another debate since it's snowing outside and I'm bored!!!

JB.

DRAGON
02-04-2006, 06:38 AM
OMG that's nuts! Here I am wondering how they coped without having speedcap's on there ten round tubes back in the day that I never even thought about actually not having tubes either lol!

JB.

lolers.......there were tubes then but none available for the .50cal paint. There were 3 cailbers then, .68, .50 and .62 which for some odd reason they called .60. Don't ask, I have no idea why it was called .60. Tubes to this day are/were only available for 68's -

DFSniper
02-04-2006, 11:06 PM
hmm, im gonna have to keep myself out of this speedball-woodsball debate. i play both, but hated speedball until i moved over here, but thats all they have. now i cant get enough, i just wanna go play some paintball!

vikingshadow
02-05-2006, 05:29 AM
Ok, no one is debating the woodsball vs speedball thing. Let's try a new one then. Ooooo, I gots a good 'un!!!!

Up'd low level entry guns/Mid level guns vs High end guns. Begin!

marvin-martian
02-05-2006, 05:48 AM
i respect a highly upped spyder WAY more than a stock mid level gun (ion, promaster etc). sure they may not shoot as well, but there is alor of effort in highly upped guns no matter what kind. i see your effort and i automaticly like you more.

FredPo
02-05-2006, 06:57 AM
I think that a properly tuned ion and promaster will shoot just as good as a high end gun. However, they aren't as reliable as a high end gun. With my timmy, never any problems. My stepbrother's ion, however, has already had a few leaks and problems to fix. It's only been used twice so far too and my timmy is an ironmen timmy :)

Fred