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View Full Version : New Low Pressure setup won't recock after adding oil


nbishop66
01-26-2006, 08:24 PM
After reading and re-reading Tim's (OtterSC) articles I finally bought some parts for both my and my son's 05 pilot ACS to go low pressure. Here's the setup.
Checkit Assault Block, 32* spring kit, 32* manga port valve, WGP Ergo, Pure Energy 68/3000, polished striker and sear, and lighter sear spring.

Final spring combo. Grey(med)/Grey(med), recocking at 355 psi. After tweaking pressure for FPS - 400psi 289 FPS

I added a few drops of oil to the striker and bolt thinking I was done, and the damn thing wouldn't recock, it just kept burping. I refuse to go any higher with the psi. I shouldn't have to.

I can't explain it. The only thing I can think of is either by polishing the striker and sear with 800 grit I rounded of some edges that need to be a little sharper for the sear to catch now that its all lubed up, or the sear spring might be too light. But why now after oiling?

Anyone have any ideas.

Thanks,
Norm
http://spyderpaintball.hopto.org (work in progress)

gailon24
01-30-2006, 09:26 AM
I was wondering if you found any solutions this weekend? I've been trying to lower the pressure on my 05 ACS and can't get it much below 700psi w/o burping.

I have the assault block, palmer's stabilizer, light spring and light metal shim from shocktek kits, stock ACS bolt, slightly polished striker/sear (i was timid tbh hehe), stock valve and a crossfire 68/45.

The reg's 3 cases broken in, so i'm pretty sure that's not it. I was hoping the stock valve would at least get me down into the 500-600 psi range, but ATM i'm running at 750 =/

I can't imagine a new valve would drop me ALL the way down to the "LP" range, can you?

Did you happen to try the adds 1 at a time and see what each did? Any suggestions to someone who's actually a few steps behind you? =)

gailon24
01-30-2006, 10:28 AM
I dont' know I've been going back and forth deciding whether to go grab a valve (thinking New Designz HP valve) but there's gotta be something else besides that keeping my pressure so high.

Wanted to add, too, that i have the stock valve spring and the light springs i said above were on the striker.

But anway, in your post, when you said you oiled then had problems...did you oil the delrin bolt? Or had you replaced that ACS bolt with a higher flowing bolt?

ad0131065
01-30-2006, 11:17 AM
For the 1st guy, I have heard that the 32* valve wont recock with the pressure much lower than 350 psi b/c the face of the valve it too big. but im not sure why it wouldn't recock after it being oiled.

And to the 2nd, Yes the valve is the reason its not going any lower, the stock valve is just not high flowing, aftermarket valves have the exhaust hole bigger and the valve pin is milled to allow more air in the valve. Get the NDZ and it should drop dramatically.

Oh BTW delrin doesnt like oil or water

covert24
01-30-2006, 11:22 AM
Oh BTW delrin doesnt like oil or water

Plus it doesnt need it.

id get a rocket valve. the one with the 2 orings cause even tho u might not see a difference it would ensure that the seal stays sealed.

the NDZ (New Designz) valve is a very good budget valve. so if are short on cahs or dont feel like spending much money then go with the NDZ valve.

phatphil
01-30-2006, 12:18 PM
You could try a lighter valve spring to let more air through.

ricochet08
01-30-2006, 12:23 PM
just throwin this out there.

i put my LP parts on my homie's pilot acs, got the pressure down to about 180, and it recocked @ about 10 balls a sec. the velocity was low also.

good luck w/ur setup :) :waytogo:

nbishop66
01-31-2006, 03:09 AM
I think I'm just going to get the Dark Horizon Titanium Striker and new sear and see how she goes.

Thanks for all the help guys,
Norm

MonkeyWiz
01-31-2006, 03:41 AM
Gailon24:
As OtterSC Customs (http://www.ottersccustoms.com/project.html)stated:
Valves - For general use, the stock valve is good. Unless you are going LP, you are fine with the stock

There is no way you can create low pressure if skipping one step.
You simply must have high airflow or there will not be any low pressure shooting.

gailon24
01-31-2006, 05:10 AM
Yeah, true, but he also kind of implied in the bottom of Project - LP page that you can try some cheap options and then if it didnt' work, go with a few other changes one by one. I'm going to change it this week probably. I was just surprised that the stock valve couldnt' even do like 600psi, that's all. I didn't expect a high flowing valve to drop me a difference of any more than like 100psi. Thus my thinking that everything but a stock valve ... 600 range then high flowing valve...drop nicely into the LP range. But then again, if it's not additive, then it makes sense that just one component, the stock valve, will be the limiting step and keep me at 700 and then a new valve suddenly plummet me to like 400-500. I'll let you know in a few days :p

gailon24
01-31-2006, 05:13 AM
I think I'm just going to get the Dark Horizon Titanium Striker and new sear and see how she goes.

Thanks for all the help guys,
Norm

BTW...I wanted to add earlier that i love the site you've created. Looks like a lot of work has gone into it!

I'm just going to stick w/ stock polished of these for now, but let me know how they turn out? :)

Eaglelox
01-31-2006, 05:13 AM
to much oil can can grab your bolt. was it a light oil. dont just throw money at it. i would find the problem before changing anything. tune it from scratch, use all the dif spring combos, change your orings. let us know how it is coming.

gailon24
01-31-2006, 07:22 AM
BTW, how did you remove the sear from the trigger frame? the first time i lightly polished it in the frame, but wanted to try to take it out. There's the single pin that holds it in, but applying a good bit of pressure with a small screw driver didn't seem to move it. Am I better just leaving it in?

MonkeyWiz
01-31-2006, 07:53 AM
BTW, how did you remove the sear from the trigger frame? the first time i lightly polished it in the frame, but wanted to try to take it out. There's the single pin that holds it in, but applying a good bit of pressure with a small screw driver didn't seem to move it. Am I better just leaving it in?

You have to push the right way.
There are small ripples on one side of the pin that holds the sear.
Push from the other way so that the 'ripples' come out first.

nbishop66
01-31-2006, 09:12 AM
Thanks Gailon24, It still needs a lot of content. I'm going to be working on a web site for a real estate company, so again my sites get put on the backburner.

Eglelox works for Insane Pain, I might pick his brain and maybe get a nightstriker XL. I could have bought a $600 marker for the price I'm paying in upgrades.:confused:

Well I think during the polishing process I took a little too much of the area where the sear catches the striker. I put my son's un-polished striker in and it works fine. Time to call Insane Pain.

Norm

gailon24
02-01-2006, 01:42 PM
OYE not good. I got my new valve today, so decided while having the gun apart i'd give it a good polishing on the internals, since I didn't do it too well before. WELL...now i have the same problem *CRY*. When I first gassed it up, I could shoot 5 or so shots, then it would fire without a recock, no matter what the pressure. Lower pressures would fire more shots before not recocking. Then after a while, it doesn't recock at all!

I still have 2k psi in my tank and the reg's showing 800 psi, but no go. I even tried putting my old valve back in, but it didn't work!

So, I shouldn't have polished? Does anyone have any possible thoughts that could save me trying to find a new striker??

gailon24
02-01-2006, 02:52 PM
Well, I guess all i can think of is go to the store tomorrow and find a lighter valve spring (which i don't have) and see if it does any good.

I was hoping maybe my air hole was clogged because of polish in the inside of the frame but i cleared that out w/ a q-tip so it wasn't that =(

It's weird that even at 800 psi it won't recock...but i guess that could be because the valve closes?

nbishop66
02-01-2006, 03:16 PM
What valve did you end up with? From Otters Site 32* Flows 289 fps, and the New Designs Flows 288 fps.

I didn't even attempt to pollish the internals. I thought that might be a little to dangerous. Did you pollish the sear as well?

I was lucky enought to have my son's striker to try out. Any buddies with Spyders? I'm probably going to buy the Night Striker XL, but got to save some cash first. Get the 32* spring kit, its got everything you'll need.

gailon24
02-01-2006, 03:27 PM
Yeah while i had the thing apart to install the New Designz valve I polished the internal chambers (was difficult). I also sanded with 800 grit -> 1000 grit -> 2000 grit automotive sand paper and then polished the sear tip, the striker, and the end of the valve pin that came w/ the new designz valve. (Pretty much following otter's polishing guide)

Like I said i tried putting the old valve in, no luck.

I tried putting the strongest shim and strongest spring into the bolt, hoping that the strength would force the valve to be open longer, but no luck there either.

Hopefully my local store has the 32* spring kit so I can change the valve springs to a lighter one.

I've been trying to think what the heck else could keep it from recocking. All the O-rings are fine. I mean, how the heck could polishing the striker cause it to not recock anymore?

It's GOTTA be the valve spring, right?

gailon24
02-02-2006, 06:37 AM
Oh well, going to go to the store and pick up a 32* kit this afternoon. Couldn't get it to work last night. The shop says they'll help me figure out what's going on. Maybe they have a stock striker I can borrow to test it or something.

Eaglelox
02-02-2006, 08:38 AM
when changing to the hardest main spring to get more air out of the valve, remember that you now do need more air just to recock the marker. the main spring works both ways. hits the valve harder but needs more air to recock because of the spring also. i always start tuning with light springs.

nbishop66
02-02-2006, 09:00 AM
I just ordered a new sear and sear spring from Kingman. When I do get my striker I wan't to start fresh with unpollished parts and see how it goes. Nice new sharp edges to catch that striker as it flies back. Good luck, I hope you get it working correctly. Check out the Insane Pain site. He describes a slightly different way to dial in the gun in the FAQ section. Might be worth a try.

The only thing I'd be affraid to do is cut the valve spring down. There's no going back if you make a mistake.

gailon24
02-02-2006, 09:21 AM
Yeah Eaglelox I've thought of that a little. I always liked using the lightest main spring till now, thinking it'd take less air to recock it as well as giving it less kick. I've tried light, medium, and hard main springs from my shocktek kit, but hopefully when i grab the 32* kit a light/light combo will be the solution.

I was actually reading your IPS FAQ last night and agreed a lot with the tuning techniques. Before I polished/added the new valve, I liked to use the lightest main spring and 700psi on my reg, it definitely made the gun the smoothest.

I can't figure out, though, how the sanding/polishing of the striker/sear could have caused this recockign problem. When I (and I assume you, too) cock the gun manually before gassing up, it seems to click in fine.

The really weird part is that when I first installed the polished parts and new valve and gassed up at 700psi, it recocked like 4-5 times. Now with the same setup it won't recock once

But, if it comes to it, how did you order new striker/sear from Kingman, nbishop?

The problem is that in my area, the only shop that carries the 32* kit is an hour away from my apt, but if that doesn't work, that shop is really sketchy for repairs so i gotta drive another hour to the shop that I like, and then a third hour home hehe.

All in the name of my beloved pilot that i busted =*(

nbishop66
02-02-2006, 10:03 AM
Just call, or e-mail Kingman. I've gotten about 3 free, yes free parts from them. One being the cover on the back of the gun that covers the opening for the striker and bolt. Both mine and my son's snapped and the part that covered the bolt got lost during a game. Cheap Chinese aluminum.

gailon24
02-03-2006, 06:20 AM
Yeah that rear cover seems pretty sketchy IMO.

Okay, but to make a story complete...I drove about 200 miles around Baltimore yesterday (grad student free half days FTW!)

I called a buncha stores 2 nights ago to find the 32* spring kit. Found one store, drove out there (hour drive). Installed it, didn't work. Drove to another store w/ a great guy (hour drive), he said he's too busy now (even though he said to stop in when i called) and would take my gun and get back to me in a week (blah!) so drove to the third store, 1 hr, but closest to my house (usually best, but they said they didnt' have the spring kit). Got there, they had FIVE of the stupid spring kits sitting there on the rack, grr guy on the phone not knowing his stock!

Started talking to the owner, he couldn't figure it out, so we took it apart a couple times, put it back together a couple times, and then suddenly *bang* it recocks. Don't ask me how, it just did. Maybe a part was catching or something and it took 10 times (including all the times i did it) taking it apart to get it broken in. Maybe the polished striker needed 3 or 4 reps of oil until it was really lubbed. We didn't change anything that I had done, still using my new o-ring and new valve. /shrug beats me!

Then I drove the hour home. The funny part was that w/ all this driving I was never more than 45 min from home. Silly 695 baltimore beltway!

I didn't have much time to test, but I can recock at 500psi, maybe with a burp or two, but that was with no hopper, no barrel, and no paint (i.e. no back pressure).

I'll let ya know this weekend what my final stats are!! I'd still like to know how that custom striker turns out, though!

Good luck and g'luck on the website!

Eaglelox
02-04-2006, 04:04 AM
32* spring kits on ebay. 6-10 bucks, delivered to your mail box. then you can clip to your harts content and not worry about messing up springs. I have used the other methods for tuning a marker, and they do work but I find the lighter the springs the less kick you get.

ooglieboogliebob
02-04-2006, 05:38 PM
haha ... you could get a 32* springkit new on most sites for that price ... i'v seen a spring kit for 4 bucks but with shipping it's 10 ...